A Winning YouTube Process for Building Trust & Getting Clients with Nicole Osborne

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[00:00:59] <teaser sequence>

Joe Casabona: YouTube has been a regular topic on this show this year. And for good reason. More people need to build trust and make their business work. And as the second-largest search engine, YouTube is a great place to do that.

We’ve talked about it with Jess Friedman. We talked about it last week with Alastair McDermott. And this week, we are talking to marketing coach Nicole Osborne, as she tells us why she started her YouTube channel, her process for publishing, and how it helped her business. Let me tell you, I got a lot of great ideas for this interview that I’ve already started implementing for my YouTube channel.

In Build Something More we talk about how marketing and web design have changed over the past 20 years. Nicole got into marketing around the same time I got into web design. So we’ve seen massive shifts in both of those fields, which we discuss over in Build Something More.

Now, I want to thank our sponsors for this episode Ahrefs, Nexcess and TextExpander. You’ll hear about them more later on in the show. You can also find all of the links, notes and top takeaways over at streamlined.fm/258. But for now, let’s get into the intro and then the interview.

[00:02:17] <intro music>

Intro: Hey, everybody, and welcome to How I Built It, the podcast that helps small business owners create engaging content that drives sales. Each week I talk about how you can build good content faster to increase revenue and establish yourself as an authority. I’m your host Joe Casabona. Now let’s get to it.

[00:02:41] <podcast begins>

Joe Casabona: Real quick, before we jump into the interview, we’ve been talking a lot about content and content planning on this show as of late, and YouTube particularly has been a big topic of conversation. But planning and staying organized with all of this content can be hard.

If you’re not sure how to plan and lay out your content strategy, I have a free resource available for you over at streamlined.fm/airtable. If you go to streamlined.fm/airtable, you can get the free content planners built with air table that I actually use to plan the content for both this podcast and my YouTube channel.

This will help you log ideas, stay organized, and keep your content production moving. It creates a schedule for you with various statuses. It allows you to log ideas and everything that I do and recommend if you’re producing a ton of content. Again, you can find that over at streamlined.fm/airtable. It is completely free. And if you are planning content, no matter if it’s for a podcast, YouTube, or even your blog, this is something that you definitely need.

Hey, everybody, and welcome to episode 258 of How I Built It. I’m really excited. I have my friend Nicole Osborne. She is a marketing coach for digital agency owners at Wunderstars. She says Wunderstars but she has told me that she really likes my accent. So I’ll say Wunderstars. Once again, Nicole, how are you?

Nicole Osborne: Joe, I am so excited to be here with you. I’ve been following How I built It for a while. So you actually featuring me as a guest, I’m ecstatic. So thank you.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming on the show. I am a big fan of you too. Your YouTube videos are great. We recently semi collabed on one because you did a video that I will link in the show notes over at streamlined.fm/258, where you offer advice to agency owners on how to get on other people’s podcasts, which is something that I have strong opinions about.

Nicole Osborne: Yeah, Joe, it was absolutely amazing because I messaged you and within an hour you sent me a couple of examples of actually really good pitch for someone to be invited on a podcast, but also a really bad one. And it made my whole vlog script so much better, Joe. I really, really appreciate it. You completely nailed it in your blog as well. So I linked that on my YouTube channel because I think anyone who wants to know anything about podcasts needs to speak to you.

Joe Casabona: Thank you. The one I wrote, I anonymized everything because I didn’t want to out people. But that it’s really close to some actual pitches I get, where it’s like, “This person is so great and you should have them on your podcast. By the way, they’re going to promote everything they’ve ever done.” I’m like, “Great. I don’t…” You know, the good pitchers are really good.

I’ve recruited you and several other people for this season. But most of the people have come from pitches either from agencies or pitching themselves. So it’s not like I’m totally closed off to pitches. I just want to make sure that they understand my goal is to deliver value for the audience.

Nicole Osborne: Right. Yeah, exactly. It’s the audience, isn’t it? And particularly in your bad pitch example, that person just really didn’t have a clue about your podcast, never listened to it. And really you just want to encourage people to send better pitches. I really loved it. And it was super helpful. I’ve done really well with my audience. So thank you for that, Joe.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. So you put out a weekly YouTube video vlog, right? More or less weekly, right?

Nicole Osborne: At the moment I’m on our bi-weekly. I find that more doable, because I am not publishing a vlog to be a YouTuber. For me it’s a marketing tool, it’s a branding tool. And I know we will talk about this today. So twice a month at the moment suits me really well. Doesn’t mean I stress out too much because you and I, we both know it’s our job to make content creation look easy. But a lot of work goes into to do it right, to really increase brand awareness, and to get the right leads for your business.

Joe Casabona: That’s exactly right. I did the same thing at the beginning of this year. I decided I was going to move to… I keep saying fortnightly because it makes me feel fancy.

Nicole Osborne: I like that.

Joe Casabona: But yeah, every other week is something that suits me a lot better. And Alastair McDermott, who’s coming up… Oh, I’m like breaking the time vortex a little bit. So as we record this, he’s coming up next week. But as you’re listening to this, you heard about him last week, where we also talked a little bit about YouTube strategy and how his goal is to maybe not necessarily be on a schedule, but publish like a handful of high-quality videos.

He and I debated the merits of that. I’m definitely interested in hearing what you think because the YouTube algorithm favors certain things, right? They favor consistency. They favor a clear niche, which is something that I’ve tried to be better about.

Maybe we’re putting the cart before the horse a little bit because I gave your title, but we really haven’t talked about who you are or what you do yet. So let’s do that and set the stage for what you talk about on your YouTube video. Who are you? And what do you do?

Nicole Osborne: Oh, thank you, Joe. I’m Nicole. I’m a marketing coach based in London. I’m actually originally from former Eastern Germany. And I talk about this quite a lot in my content because as Germans, we are really known for being productive and organized.

I specialize in working with digital agency owners. I’ve been in marketing now for 21 years. I get so much joy out of working with agency owners directly to really help them attract more of their best fit clients. When I say best fit clients, I mean, the clients who pay well, who support their processes, and who essentially are fun to work with. I think it’s really, really important.

Now, often agency owners, they have a preference for really relying on referrals for leads. And that’s a great strategy, and it works in many cases. But it also means that sometimes you have a situation where you either get stuck at a certain price point or you just completely run out of leads. So by working on your marketing, by making them more productive I help them really get to those best fit clients.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’ll point to Michelle Molton’s episode too. She kind of opened up the year and the season, where she talks about kind of building your authority through content for that exact reason, right, so that you’re not relying on referrals so that by the time someone reaches out to you, they’ve kind of already been sold on your services. You don’t have to go through the sales process. And they know if they’re a good fit, you know if they’re a good fit.

I didn’t realize that you’ve been in this for 20 years. I hope it’s okay I say this, but it doesn’t look like you’re old enough to be doing this for 20 years. So kudos.

Nicole Osborne: You’re my favorite. I started working in marketing 21 years ago fresh out of university. I studied marketing as well, actually. And you know what? It’s been so fascinating to see all the changes happening. That’s what I love working with digital agencies because they constantly face change, and I can never stand still. And that kind of suits my personality. But just thank you so much for that compliment. I really appreciate that.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe we could talk about those changes in Build Something More, because I’ve been a web developer for the same time and the same sort of changes have happened. As we record this, I recorded an episode of my other WordPress podcast called How Can You Be a WordPress Freelancer in 2022?. I mean, WordPress didn’t even exist when I started. So the landscape changes considerably. So maybe we could talk about that a bit in Build something More.

Nicole Osborne: I looked at your media page the other night and I absolutely loved how you bring together all these numbers, about how long you’ve been working in WordPress. Because you have that expertise and it’s not a made-up level of expertise. I think it’s really good that you’re so explicit about it. But yeah, how WordPress has changed. When you started it didn’t exist, right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah. I hand-coded websites and then I said to my friend… This is like my WordPress origin story. I’ll just mentioned this really quick. I said to my friend one time, I was working in the… So I started freelancing when I was 14 or 15. So by the time I got to college, I was like, “You know, I think I’m going to make a way for my clients to update their own website so I don’t have to do it.” And my friends Steve Mikash was like, “Have you ever heard of WordPress?” And I was like, “No.” But it was like 2004. WordPress was barely alive in 2004.

But I downloaded it and I tried it out and I’m like, “This is great.” So I really used it for my clients since that point and full time on all my projects since 2006 when they rolled out page support. So yeah, just big changes. We’ll dive into that in Build Something More because I think that’s a really good conversation.

So you’ve been in marketing for 20 years. You love working with agency owners. I believe we met through the GoWP Digital Agency Owners Facebook group, right?

Nicole Osborne: Mm-hmm.

Joe Casabona: I feel like your niche is a little bit better served than my niche there, but it’s such a great community and great people. And they’ve been really supportive of I think both of us. You said that you love working with agency owners because of the things we just talked about, like not necessarily relying on referrals.

Nicole Osborne: But you know it’s funny because they’re so good really. Agency owners are superb at making our clients look great across websites, digital channels, you know, depending on what digital agency marketing. But we really struggled with getting our own marketing done.

And often it’s a combination between not having any processes in place for outsourcing, not having any process in place for regular marketing or regular sales. I love helping agency owners do that because you make little consistent changes. Good friend of ours, Matthew Jackson, he always says, small achievable acts leads to big change.

And it’s the same with when you want to change your agency and you really want to grow it to a level where you make more money, you have more time with your family, you have a better work-life balance, whatever it might be that you desire. So yeah, it gives me a lot of job satisfaction. Because to see people go through that transformation, all of a sudden feeling on top of their time or feeling on top of their clients, at least mostly, it’s super enjoyable.

And I really feel at home with digital agencies because I guess, you know, when I was a corporate marketeer, I used to commission kinds of agency. So I was at the receiving end. I had to sort of look at many different proposals, I had to look at websites.

But one thing which struck me often is they all looked too much the same. And I guess that’s why you and I first connected because we could both see that… We talk about our personalities and our content, we make a concerted effort to come across as different and perhaps to stand out in a good way to connect with our ideal clients.

An agency is vital. They’re great at making their clients do that but really struggling when it comes to marketing themselves. So I see such a huge potential for helping them with that and for really helping them to get more satisfying clients really. And I do that with my Wunderstars coaching program. So I should at least say it on my Wunderstars coaching program.

Joe Casabona: Yes, yeah. And I’ll link that in the show notes too.

Nicole Osborne: Oh, thanks.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. But you’re right, it’s a situation of kind of the shoemaker’s kids don’t have shoes, right? Is that the colloquialism, right?

Nicole Osborne: Absolutely.

Joe Casabona: Where your website as an agency owner, if you’re a web developer, might fall to the wayside because you’re too busy working on other clients’ websites. And I have always made it a habit, when I was doing web design full time, of making my personal website my sandbox so that I would learn tools there and kind of keep it up to date that way.

But it’s hard, right? You need to have those processes in place. And sometimes you need help. And you’re absolutely right. When I was doing web development in higher ed, I learned that I could make three times more by quitting and then being a consultant for them.

Nicole Osborne: Such a shame, but good opportunity for you, right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. So when I quit, I was like, “Hey, if you need me to consult a little bit…” And I did consult with them a little bit. So you work with agency owners. You started your YouTube channel not too long ago, is that right?

Nicole Osborne: Well, I think I started taking it more seriously not too long ago. Perhaps sort of over the last year. Prior to that, I think I launched it about 2014 but I didn’t really have a plan in place. I had really bad levels of consistency. But as for many people having the pandemic, you know, many challenges, but also opportunity and less speaking gigs that I had to travel so I had really more time.

You know what? I really want to hone into my YouTube channel because when I look around and there’s lots of YouTube channels specializing working with agency owners, but fairly often were focused on the tech. So you know what’s the best page builder or should be updating to this new plug that plug in. And they’re huge and brilliant channels. But I really saw there was an opportunity for someone who really specialize in sharing agency growth tips, marketing tips, plus brings on really good agency examples.

That’s really where I decided I wanted to stand out. I didn’t want to deliver my content in such a serious almost because, well, you know me, it doesn’t suit me. I like to have a laugh. Life it too short. I always think when you present an achievable example, this is how another agency has handled this and this is what you can learn from it, it kind of is a bit more achievable.

And for me, I know someone’s style might be to completely reach over moon straightaway, right? That’s not me. I want you to feel like, okay, let’s just fly from one continent to the next on planet Earth. Let’s do that well. Let me travel around the world, and then maybe it’s an independent planetary system. But just take it step by step really.

Joe Casabona: I think that’s such a healthy way to look at it too, right? Because I’ve had teenagers say to me like, “I want to be a YouTuber when I grow up.” And that is a great goal. But I’ll tell them, the same thing that I tell most people is you’re not going to get rich overnight with it. It’s a grind.

MKBHD, one of the biggest tech channels on YouTube started in 2009. YouTube was four years old. So he got in early and he makes some incredible videos. It looks effortless because so much effort goes into it. And so I think you’re taking a good approach.

When you start off, start slow. See what works best for you. This is the same advice I give to podcasters. Your first episode is not going to be… Well, the example I usually use is add a favor now. So you’re not going to be the next great NPR show in your first episode. So I think that’s a really good approach.

Nicole Osborne: And also the other thing I like to say is kind of we probably all have content creators we really look after, right? And we forever move in that space thinking, “Oh, my God, there’s no way I can achieve that.” And I can’t even allow myself to get started unless on that level of perfect.

So I always say, pick a content creator you really admire and look at their first videos or listen to their best podcast episodes or read by first blogs. Because frankly, that show you how much of a journey we have undertaking. Now, I purposely left my very first video on YouTube. It’s absolutely cringe-worthy. I’m promoting a blog of mine. At the time, I was offering social media services, done for you services.

And I look at it and I really just want to hide away and so cringe-worthy. But when I have one of these low moments, and of course, I have low moments as well, I look back and I say, “You know, Nicole, you’ve done it. You’re growing. You’re learning.” And I think that’s the best way of getting started with any medium is allowing yourself to get started and not compare yourself over time and demand that level of perfection.

And Joe, wouldn’t you say people are actually really bored of perfection? I think it’s the same on YouTube or a podcast. If everything is way too polished, I’m not sure that’s what listeners or viewers really want. They want to see the real stuff. So there’s lots of room for everyone just getting started.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think that’s absolutely right. Especially because we’ve seen the rise of a creator economy now, where lots of people are making money or trying to make money by connecting with creators. I tweeted about this recently because it drives me insane.

You have these creators who have done extremely well for themselves and they’re just full of platitudes. They’re like, “Here’s what you do. Just start or the whatever.” And I’m like, “Yeah, okay, that’s like fortune cookie advice. But creating isn’t easy. And you shouldn’t sell it as easy. That’s snake oil.”

In my courses and in my coaching where I try to help people make money with their podcasts, I say, “Look, this is going to be hard. You’re not going to make money early on. But you don’t need downloads for your first sponsor. You can sign up for an affiliate program and start making some money to offset the costs. And then I’ve been podcasting for, oh, my God, 10 years. I have been-

Nicole Osborne: Congratulations! That’s a huge achievement, you know.

Joe Casabona: Thank you. Thank you. My current podcast is six or seven years old now. But my first podcast, which is not online—but maybe I will put that first episode up so people can see where I started—was terrible. It was a bad format. We didn’t do any research. It was a panel show, which is like with six people, generally bad, unless you have an actual good moderator, which I’m not. I come back to this a lot. You see the Olympic gold medalist standing on the podium, you don’t see the years of pain and sacrifice and hardship.

Nicole Osborne: You’re so right. I mean, people might look at me nowadays and say, “Oh, Nicole looks really confident on camera. She must be a natural.” Well, Joe, let me tell you, I am not a natural on camera. I did a lot of group coaching, then some one-on-one coaching to really work through my video face. I’m being a real. So it does take work.

And once you master perhaps you’re video confidence, then if YouTube, as you said earlier, how do you actually pick the kind of topics your channel has a chance to rank for and to be seen by the right audience? It’s a massive learning curve. And actually it always continues because as of any social media platform, the algorithm changes. So you have got to keep on top of it. So it’s a massive learning curve.

And I think what you said, there’s a big shift which takes place when you decide which niche can you serve for best stride? Because then you can really figure out okay, so what problems am I truly facing? Where do I add value? And how can I actually maximize myself to sell my products or services? But you have to have a plan for that right? This doesn’t happen as you said. You really have to think this through.

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Joe Casabona: I just kind of put videos up that I thought it would be good. And then I had a one hour coaching session with a YouTube expert, and he was looking through my channel and he’s like, “What’s your value proposition?” And I’m like, “Oh, I do this.” And he goes, “Doesn’t say that anywhere on your YouTube channel.” He’s like, “You should make that your banner.”

And then he’s looking through these videos and he’s like, “You need to look at your videos that are public right now and say, if one of these go viral, is that what I’m willing to spend all of my time on with doing these videos?” And he’s like, “If the answer for any of these videos is no, then you need to hide it because this is what YouTube favors. Like consistency and covering similar topics.” And I was like, “Wow, that’s a really strong argument for picking a niche.

So I separated out my podcast content and I put it over on a different channel. And now I’m focusing mostly on WordPress tutorials but it’s still creator-focused. So I’m experimenting with a little bit like WordPress, maybe like productivity with the iPhone because like that stuff’s generally does really good. But it takes some time to figure it out, especially when it comes to like the YouTube algorithm part.

Nicole Osborne: Right. And I think experimenting is really worthwhile doing. Because when and you look at your analytics and you figure out what has worked well, how long have you retained people, what did they click through next, it’s really valuable.

Funny enough, on my channel, I was working with a coach at the time and first they said, “Nicole, you got to do a video on how to name your business.” And like, “I’m not naming expert for business.” And he said, “Yeah, but come on, do some research, reflect on what you did for your own business.” My previous business was lollipop social, even though I didn’t like lollipops, but you know, it was a name which worked for me really well.

So I went out and I researched a vlog and I even shared my secret that I didn’t like lollipops. And this is my highest performing video on my channel. To this day I’m so surprised by it, shocked by it, because I didn’t even want to pick that topic.

Joe Casabona: That’s the thing, right? You think like, Oh, this video is going to kill it,” and it doesn’t. My most popular video to date is how to set up the a6400, the camera I’m using right now,-

Nicole Osborne: Oh, my goodness.

Joe Casabona: …for beginners. Because all the other tutorials we’re like assuming you have some background in photography, so they skip over some really important parts. And I’m like, “I’m not a photographer. I just like tech. So here are the things that were skipped.” And still my most popular video.

The reason I haven’t capitalized on that is because I don’t want this to be a hardware channel. That’s really expensive. Unless Sony or Panasonic or Canon or whoever, if you’re listening, if you want to send me gear, I will review it all day long. But you’re right.

Nicole Osborne: You’re picky by now. You know what you like by now?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole Osborne: It’s really important because particularly your voice on a podcast or how you look and sound on a video it shows whether you really into something or not, right? So it’s got to bring you joy. Everything we said about being strategic, about your YouTube channel, about content, you need to find something you actually love doing. Because if you don’t, your energy levels will drop and no one is going to stay watching that right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah. And people can tell when you’re phoning it in, right? This is one of the reasons I dropped from weekly to bi-weekly because the grind of getting a new video out and done and proper, even with my kind of, like, streamlined process, and we’ll get to that in a minute, was a lot of work. And I just kind of do stuff and it wouldn’t be very good.

And I have an editor too. So like just the topics weren’t very well thought out. It’s like, well, I can record this quick. So I’ll just do this. And you could tell.

Nicole Osborne: I can never tell watching your videos. I think your videos are brilliant honestly. I do know what you mean. For me my biggest weakness and you can probably tell by talking to me, I love talking. And if I wasn’t scripting my vlogs, I would just talk way too long on any topic.

My German brain also wants me to explain why something is really important. But actually, on YouTube, no one cares about why. It’s about me how and what results you can get from it. So when I write a script so I basically write out every single word and I go over it many times, particularly the beginning section, because that’s really, really important. And then I make sure that I have some open loops in there to tempt people to stay on longer. And I have like a lead magnet or something to promote, I make sure that to mention as well.

So I spent probably five hours on a single script, if not more, depending on what it is. But it’s perfect. Because when I then come to recording day, everything is planned out. I just use my usual setup with a camera and everything. The recording is pretty quick. I can then send it to my editor. And we have a system worked out in terms of how I suggest what I like to do and also how we review things.

So doing more research up front and getting it right for me really pays off. Even though it is painful, it’s probably my least favorite part of my whole YouTube journey is the scripting. But I know I couldn’t do without it.

And then I record. I still understate about I’m using an iPhone to record. And it works well for me. I have a teleprompter app. So that took some getting used to in the beginning. But it just means that I don’t get it quite as wrong but I always have tons of outtakes and I actually published by those out because I think they’re quite funny.

And people always think you’d get it right the first time but we don’t. So those we have to say the same thing all over like 10 times and it’s really bad, that’s when you know you have to rewrite the script really. Joe is nodding now. He does that too.

Joe Casabona: Absolutely. If I have like the same for LinkedIn Learning, because I script all the videos, they probably have some unsavory sound clips of me where I’m swearing, because it’s like I’ve been at it for a bunch of hours, and they just want to get it done. But you are super spot on about the planning and the scripting.

Perfect example is my current latest YouTube video about how to connect Stripe to LearnDash, I thought like off like, “Oh, I’ve connected stripe a million times. I use LearnDash all the time. This is going to be easy.” But they recently changed their API, which I didn’t look into before I started recording.

And so I ended up recording the video three times. I straight up say in the video, “I don’t think we really need this webhook thing,” and it turned out that I did. And I’m like, I tried backpedaling. And then eventually, I was like, “This is dumb. I know the whole process now.” So the third video went a lot smoother. And I was like, “If I just choreographed this beforehand, it would have maybe taken the same amount of time but way less energy.

Nicole Osborne: I suppose. But you know, it’s so hard to time what you say to what you do on the screen. I don’t know. I try to do not do too many demonstration videos. I usually like, [inaudible 00:31:12] did really well. Here’s the screenshots. Let’s scroll for the homepage.” Because it’s really hard to time what you’re doing.

And also when you talk through someone step by step instructions, the speed in your head is completely different to what it needs to come out as. Maybe some of you have internet issues and it just takes a long time buffering and you sit there making all these strange noises in your head but you can’t really say anything, because you are on camera. I have every respect for you.

Joe Casabona: So I think that’s a really good point, right? Because I excel at screencasts. This is one of the reasons that LinkedIn Learning has me created so many courses because I can talk and explain what I’m doing on the screen at the same time. I can talk and write code at the same time but I can’t read from a teleprompter. I’ve tried.

And it’s just like I talk too fast, the pacing is wrong, I get frustrated. I’m like, “Do I really need to say the exact words I wrote?” I’m good at riffing. So kudos to you. I’ve tried and cannot use a teleprompter. So I’ll pause if I need to take breaks and rephrase things and edit that way. But, man, I have a teleprompter, and I never use it because it takes me way longer to do that.

Nicole Osborne: That’s fine. I find that as long as I aim to write exactly as I’m talking and naturally in conversation, and I keep sentences short and as long as I write it in my own words. And I say this because in the beginning, I had my script edited by someone who really specializes in YouTube management. And her script sounded amazing. It had my content, but she edited it. But because she would sometimes say things in a way I would never say them. I used to just stumble so much over them.

So what helps me is I record standing up. And I’m quite an energetic person, so that helps me. With my teleprompter, I can just stop it and just redo it again. It probably took me sort of three to four vlogs to really get into it. And it’s probably partially why I’m not upgrading to actually a camera because I’m so used to filming with my teleprompter app on my phone. It sounds like the idea of having to get used to a different system. But I will eventually. But yeah, I don’t find we’re reading so difficult. I guess it’s just a scripting, as you say word by word, it can be a bit tedious.

But funnily enough, it also feel that it just gets better every time I edited a little bit. So as I found lately, I have to sort of give myself a time limit because yes, we would all aim for perfect, but then you just never get it done right. I try to read it… I do this one hour and maybe it has a timer on if it’s something I don’t like to do. Do it for another 45 minutes and really work my way through it quite systematically, then.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think that’s a really great point. I have two other podcasts that I do script and I ended up riffing anyway. I just can’t help it. I mean, that’s okay because I talk fast. So I’ll script something and my writing app will usually be like, “Oh, yeah, this should take you like 12 minutes to read and it takes me like eight. And I was like, I really want this to be like a 10 minute episode at least.” So I do end up ripping. I can’t help it.

Nicole Osborne: We both talk fast.

Joe Casabona: So listeners are probably listening to this at 75% of the speed, right? I’ve tried listening to my own podcasts at like one and a half times speed, and I’m like it’s indecipherable what I’m saying. I’m like, “I don’t know what I’m saying.”

Nicole Osborne: If someone speaks this low on rare videos, I turn up the speed because I’m like, “Come on, guys.”

Joe Casabona: Yeah, for sure.

Nicole Osborne: Ten minutes for me. That’s it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s funny. I listened to a podcast called Advisory Opinions with Sarah Isgur and David French. They are political commentators, but they’re also lawyers. And so they have a strong law background. That’s why I like listening to them.

But I listen to their podcast at like 1.25 times speed. And then Sarah will go on ABCs Sunday morning political show and she just sounds so weird to me because I’m used to listening to her like slightly faster.

Nicole Osborne: In the UK we had to do homeschooling about a year ago, and there was one teacher in my son’s class, she was really monotone and rather slow like that. I had her on times to video speed.

Joe Casabona: Oh, my gosh.

Nicole Osborne: Only I and my son could do it.

Joe Casabona: Oh, that’s so funny. That’s so funny.

Nicole Osborne: Not feeling proud.

Joe Casabona: But I mean, do what you gotta do. I’ll do the same thing. I’ll listen or watch videos at that speed. If I don’t have to like do exactly what’s happening on the screen, then, as long as I’m getting the information, right?

Nicole Osborne: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: That’s why repetition is really important I think in these mediums too is make the point at the beginning or tee it up, mention it in the middle, reiterate at the end, because people are probably doing other things, especially with podcasts.

Nicole Osborne: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: So we’ve talked a little bit about your process. You script, you read from a teleprompter, and then you send it off for edit. And you have a good process in place for that. That was one of my questions was what app do you use to edit? But you and I have taken the same route. Maybe because we feel this. I hate editing. It’s my least favorite thing.

Nicole Osborne: So, listeners, I am laughing just the way Joe’s face just look when he said this. But I feel the same. To be successful with what you do, you have to know quite early on what can you get your teeth into, what can you learn, and where are you much better of outsourcing. And I knew with editing, I never wanted to learn it. I never really attempted it. I mean, in the beginning, it was a huge investment. I guess as I then started to get leads in and some sponsorships, it was better.

But also working with an editor, you can kind of tap into their creativity, their guidance. My first editor was really amazing at giving me confidence-building tips, and not all at one. You do that so well, Joe. You bite chunkier tips, right? For me, I love that.

And my editor at the time was saying if’d he could give me all his YouTube knowledge, I would have switched off, I couldn’t take it. So working with editors is so rewarding. It’s fun because you’re creative, they’re creative and you know you both want the same. You want to create the best vlog or blog or podcast. So now it’s a joy really. Yes, outsourcing a bit you can do early on as soon as you can really.

Joe Casabona: I edited an episode of this podcast early on. It was with Brian Krogsgard. We both said “um” a lot. And I was like, “I need to edit out every “um.” First of all, don’t do that. It sounds like super unnatural. I recommend to my students now, I’m like, unless it’s like a really long um with a really long pause, keep it in, because they’ll know it’s a human being speaking.

But that process was so terrible that I hired an editor for episode four. I had one for a while and now I’m on my current one, Joel, who’s amazing. So worth it. Something that took me literally hours costs me relative… I mean, Joel’s like, probably really efficient and knows what to look for and things like that. And same thing with my video editor. The things that take me hours, take them a few minutes because they do it. They probably have shortcuts or macros or whatever in place.

I learned that there’s like this foot pedal that allows you to move forward and backwards in videos. So they’re probably never taken their hands off the keyboard or whatever. And it’s just really efficient.

Nicole Osborne: I guess the other important thing when you outsource is to have good communication process in place. So I have the mother of all Asana boards, which for me, I start off by doing the keyword research. So what topics could be interesting, then figure out, okay, so that’s an interesting topic, what’s the SEO behind it? What words do you need to build and what’s the title to use for the description on YouTube? What’s the title to use on my thumbnail? I’ll have something in there which says, Send your title and your image to your designer.

Other things would include the crest, your subtitles, schedule it, write out the descriptions, then the whole promotion. So everything is basically like a tick box on this massive Asana board. And it’s great because you can see really usually what’s coming up next. It’ll really make sure that you don’t forget anything. So I love it.

At first, I was a little bit hesitant because it just looked like too big spreadsheet. But then as I ease myself into it, I’m like, “Yeah, this really saves time.” And then I added some tasks, we took some off. So I would definitely recommend to anyone to have a system in place, which keeps you organized as much as possible.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll plug. I have a free download. That is my Airtable podcast.

Nicole Osborne: I got it. I got it. I’m going to try it today. I’ve been hesitant of Airtable but you said so many good things about it now Brittany has. I’ve downloaded it and I’m definitely going to use it, especially now that I know you created it.

Joe Casabona: Well, thank you. So I have the my podcast planner and my YouTube content planner in there. Again, I’ll put that in the show notes over at streamlined.fm/258. It was pretty easy to make an Airtable. I just kind of cloned my actual one, and then scrubbed all of the data. And now there’s like a separate section for it. But I’ve been looking at ClickUp a little bit because I’m working with multiple people now. And Airtable very frustratingly charges the same amount for each team member.

Nicole Osborne: Oh, right?

Joe Casabona: Which I mean I get it because I’m giving them access to a whole base. But I would love a virtual assistant tier where I pay like an extra five bucks for them to access this one single base. And ClickUp is a little bit more affordable. But I mean, everything is in Airtable.

It works super well for me. The automations are amazing. You know, like the extra 20 bucks per user per year is a hard pill to swallow when I pay it all at once. But then I’m like, look at all the time I’m saving. You filled out the Calendly form and it went to Airtable and it went to Notion and I didn’t have to do anything.

Nicole Osborne: It’s amazing. I think you being such a good podcast host you really make sure that your guests feel very well prepared and welcome.

Joe Casabona: Thank you.

Nicole Osborne: Just about your YouTube content planner, so one areas I know I need to work on is I used to be really good in terms of planning out three or four topics at the time and then at least being able to film two vlogs on the filming day. But lately, I would definitely say since beginning of this year, I’ve just kind of lost my being really organized. So I kind of forever and I’m catching up.

So your YouTube planner, is that an Airtable one which encouraged me to get in one go several YouTube topics, research to be SEO, set the title. Oh, excellent, Joe is not enough for everyone. He’s nodding, so we have to check it out.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. This is like my base… We can talk through this real quick. And then I want to get to your goals for your YouTube channel. Because I know that people have different goals. I have it laid out as a Canva board. But the thing I love about Airtable is like there’s a million different views for it.

So I have an idea section and then I have basically a category for the channel. So I have Podcasts Liftoff for my personal channel. And then I’ll move the ones I want to do next into the next column, which is next up. So I can easily look at that, look at the notes. Once it’s recorded, I move it to “recorded.”

And then I put in all my edit notes. I move it to out for edit and an automatically emails my editor with a Dropbox link and the Edit notes. Because he doesn’t care to use Airtable. He prefers email. So I’m like, great. It’s an Airtable wonderful, it goes out edit. So the automations aren’t going to come with this download. But like one of the reasons I love Airtable is I will automatically update the status when a file hits Dropbox.

Nicole Osborne: Love it.

Joe Casabona: So when my editor for both the podcast and YouTube send the video back and put it into the edited folder, the status updates to back from edit.

Nicole Osborne: Joe, isn’t it the best feeling when you… So you’ve recorded your podcast or you recorded your video, you’ve done all the editing notes, and then it goes off to the editor?

Joe Casabona: Yes.

Nicole Osborne: I have a little bit of a break. Yes.

Joe Casabona: And then, I mean, I’ll scrub through because I had chapter markers. I think you do the same thing. That’s when I review the video too. And most of the time I don’t have any notes because again, we have that good back and forth.

My editor is a previous Treehouse course editor. So I already knew the way that I work and the way that he edits would jive really well. And then I move it into upload and then my VA gets an email and she will upload the video for me.

Nicole Osborne: It goes to an expert section. And I think that’s the sector many people overlook. It’s really good promotion. Right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah.

Nicole Osborne: So sharing it with your email list several times, posting it in relevant Facebook groups, posting it on social media, interacting with people, having teasers for what you do. Because I mean, if it’s content just outbound, no one is watching, it’s worth nothing, right? So you’ve got to at least have an equal amount between filming, creating, recording and actually promoting it right. So important.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. That’s one place I struggle with. I try to rely on the algorithm too much. I’m using like TubeBuddy to like AB test thumbnails and things like that. But the promoting it is probably something I can be a lot a bit better at.

Nicole Osborne: Do you know what? As a content creator, I don’t know about you, but when I watched a video of mine several times for signing it off, you know, the script I’ve read it so many times, I get a bit bored for a while.

I actually need to have a bit of distance for me to almost take it in as fresh content again. So I have to make myself promote it. But then maybe I haven’t seen something for six months and someone says, “Oh, Nicole, you mentioned so and so in your blog, and I’ve watched it back. That’s really good, Nicole.” Because by then I hear it with fresh eyes again.

So I think we’ve got to just give ourselves a bit of credit. It is hard sometimes when you’re so in it to be objective enough to then really promoted well and do all of the things we meant to be doing. But you know, you said earlier on about how you monetize your YouTube channel. I’m no near at the moment to the required watch time.

But for me, that’s not really what I set out to do. So what I do quite often, I speak at events. And right now I’m preparing for brightonSEO. When I do a talk, I will always find opportunities to mention my YouTube channel or I lead magnet, which would be seen hopefully as value.

So my aim for my YouTube channel is that someone sees me at an event, they signed up to a lead magnet, they want to check me out. You know, does Nicole actually know any of the things she talks about? What would she be like to work with? Often I get it with my leads that when I find it. So how did you find out? You know, we heard you on a podcast? Yeah, hopefully, maybe someone on this podcast will hear us. And then I checked out on YouTube and actually that’s when I got in touch.

So for me, it’s very much a trust-building exercise. Yes, I’m very passionate about sharing marketing tips and helping agencies grow but you know, I’m building a sustainable business. So I need to make sure that I have leads coming in. So getting people on my email list and then hopefully converting somebody they know me by the time they need me that I’m there being top of mind and all of these things.

So, for me really, the more my new leads mentioned that they heard me on YouTube, the happy I am. Last year have I had my first sponsorship, which was great. It was Agorapulse social media scheduler. So really suitable for my audience and for my topics. I am in discussion at about a second thing.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Nicole Osborne: So let’s see how it goes. So obviously that’s brilliant, right? But that’s not really why I have my YouTube channel. I do generally want to share value and I do want to get in front of the right people by me being agency owners.

Joe Casabona: And that’s really important. That’s something that Alastair and I talked about last week in his episode, is my channel is monetized. I put affiliate links in those. And yes, I would love to establish my expertise through that YouTube channel.

But the things I’m showing people how to do are not really things that I’m consulting or coaching with right now. So that was kind of the purpose of the separate Podcast Liftoff channel, which I’m still trying to find my way there. The most popular video is like how to record your podcast on your iPhone with a good mic. That’s turning a little bit into a hardware channel. I don’t really want that. But people keep sending me microphones to review and it’s popular content.

But I do you want to do a little bit more talking, very similar to your style there, where I maybe take articles I wrote on the blog and turn them into YouTube videos. But I’m still trying to find my sea legs for that one.

Nicole Osborne: And I guess it’s like the articles which do really well on your website where you can see, oh, this is something which got a lot of traffic and people have downloaded the lead magnet, then both are probably worth researching on YouTube how you could use it on YouTube, right? Because it’s content networks and you don’t have to make it up from scratch.

I tend to do it the other way around. Actually, I pick the topics for YouTube. And while I’m doing that research for YouTube, I also have a look at, Okay, what’s a good keyword for Google, for example? The moment I’m filming something on agency growth strategies, like five proven techniques, the purpose is that I want to promote my new lead magnet, which is eBook of agency growth secrets, which I just put together. And I’m excited about it.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Nicole Osborne: And I now know that on Google its growth strategies, which is the word to use, the keyword to us. When I do turn it into a blog, I will slightly rejigger it to make that work. But it’s so fascinating with SEO, right?

The most successful blog on my website is actually I was going to call it interesting social media posts, because I have another lead magnet witness for 30 content ideas for digital agencies. And I was going to call it interesting. But actually it’s engaging that people search. But I’m so pleased I did my research because it is the best performing blog at the moment on my website in terms of traffic and then people going to get a lead magnet. So I’m like, “Glad for once I did research.”

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Joe Casabona: How much keyword research do you do for YouTube videos and blog posts?

Nicole Osborne: So like everyone, I started off just filming whatever sprang to mind because I was really overwhelmed by the whole concept of creating a YouTube video. But then I count on that I’d be much better off actually going—I use TubeBuddy like you do—going into TubeBuddy and finding out, what’s something with a high search volume, where do I have towns for ranking because competition isn’t so high.

So I tend to go for topics which do well on TubeBuddy. I’ll also do just a normal search on the actual platform YouTube to see you know what topics have come out in the last year, what are the numbers people are getting. So let’s say if it’s a channel for like 2,000 subscribers and they have a topic on there with 10,000 views, then that kind of suggests to you that that could be a good topic to go for. So I do that as well.

I have to be honest with you. It’s not my strength, so I really have to make myself do it. So I have to see the data. I have to put it into spreadsheets to keep looking at it. But I think it’s a combination of things. So I do use something that TubeBuddy or vidIQ and you search on Google as well, and you watch accounts you like and see what they’re ranking for.

I can’t give you these other four steps I use. But it’s usually I think of something of “This would excite me. This is a question I got.” My ideal case scenario is I get a good question in a Facebook group, Facebook group for agency owner. So let’s say recently I had something in the admin bar, should I do a YouTube channel or should I do a podcast? So I went then over TubeBuddy, and I researched it and I came up with a title which I could rank for.

So I think at the time, I also reached out for you and you also kindly helped about talking about podcasts. And I put together the video and it was directly like linked to a question I got in a Facebook group. But even then, you know, just because that one person asked that question doesn’t mean YouTube things it’s like great content were shown to everyone. So it’s really a bit of an experiment.

My advice would be to find a balance between what you would enjoy filming that you can see your audience enjoy, but also what links into what you’re trying to sell, you know, if that’s why you having a YouTube channel. If you want to be a YouTuber, it’s kind of really what audience can you find on YouTube and blow it up.

For me, that’s not my goal. My goal is I want steady growth on YouTube. Yes, I want to by the end of this year, let’s say, I want to be on 2,000 subscribers. And I know that’s still a relatively small channel. But you know what, as long as I have a loyal following and people mentioned it to me that they’ve been watching it and I get good reactions, I usually get quite good engagement. So yes, I’d like to go to 2,000.

I’m sure like every content creator become more and more polished in terms of my processes to avoid more and more any sort of last minute dashes to take my networks off. Have you got anything good to say about this? Please tell me now.

Joe Casabona: I totally get that. Especially I was sick last week, two weeks ago. And I really feel like with the one recent episode, you can tell. I think I explicitly say it. But it was a little bit rushed because it was one of the more timely episodes I wanted to do. It wasn’t one that I had batched because I’m like, batched out through the end of March right now. But this was one I was like, Yeah, I’m going to record the week of because I want it to be timely. And then I got sick. And so it was a little bit rushed. But you’re absolutely right. So now have like a few in the tank that are like-

Nicole Osborne: Brilliant.

Joe Casabona: …kind of timeless. But you got to make time for that. Anyway, I think that’s really helpful. I don’t do nearly enough keyword research for anything. Maybe I should do more for this podcast too. Like I’ve started titling episodes better. And I actually had my VA go back and update all of the titles for all the previous episodes. But that wasn’t really based on research. That was kind of based on what we talked about. Another place for me to experiment. Content creation is experimentation.

Nicole Osborne: Exactly.

Joe Casabona: Feels like something I should put on a t-shirt.

Nicole Osborne: Yes, please do. You did have a chat, I think two episodes down, with a lovely lady who also does some t-shirt designs, right? I think you were saying that you’re going to work on YouTube thumbnails.

Joe Casabona: Yes. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Nicole Osborne: She was lovely. It was a great interview. I think definitely mention that again in the show notes. I think people find it really helpful.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, this is going to be really rich show notes.

Nicole Osborne: If you got a German on the show, what are you expecting?

Joe Casabona: Awesome. I think it might have been Christine Pittman or Jessica Freeman. Either one of those. Jessica is doing the kind of thing that we’re talking about, right?

Nicole Osborne: It was Jessica, yeah.

Joe Casabona: …where she generate leads. Oh, Jessica was great.

Nicole Osborne: Great episodes. You two have such good banter as well. So many helpful tips.

Joe Casabona: One of the people who has pitched to me. Like good pitch, good fit. Great, great episode. Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. Well, the last question I want to ask you because we’ve been talking for a very long time, because we both talk a lot and talk quickly, is you you’ve continually mentioned lead magnets. This is something I’m not super great about. I asked for the subscribe, I have the card for my membership. And I do say that at the beginning, but I don’t… Perhaps a lead magnet would be a better ask.

Because instead of saying like, “Hey, if you like this, sign up for a subscription. Everybody loves those,” maybe getting them onto my mailing list would be better. How have you found the lead magnets? Like do you find that your YouTube videos generate leads in that way?

Nicole Osborne: I just mentioned for the first time my agency growth eBook. Basically, I went out, I interviewed 29 agency owners across four continents to uncover growth secrets. And I put it together the 10 best growth secrets. And I had just published it in the first vlog. And around the same time I’d just sent it to a couple of people in my network. And within a week I had 30 people on the download list. So I think that’s really good considering the size of my channel. Obviously, they’re not all from YouTube.

But it seems to me that the trick is really to make it so irresistible that it is an absolute non-brainer. I so often talk about agency growth because I generally really love talking about agency growth. So I’ll mention a couple of things. I’ll always say, “If you want more, if you want to order in your inbox, go here and download it, and you’ll find the link in the comments.” So you really have to push it and push it again.

I’ve got two main lead magnets, and they work for growing my list. I guess it’s always tricky to find what’s first small problem you can solve and solve a big problem but with a quick win. Sort of figuring that out. I haven’t found that easy myself. So my first one is 30 engaging social media posts ideas for digital agencies. And because I struggled with ideas, that went down really well and I have a whole nurturing sequence. And this one was to be agency growth eBook.

So I guess it’s about what does your audience really struggle with? Where could you be helpful based on your area of expertise? Because there’s got to be something leading into what you’re selling, right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Osborne: Because if it’s not, then why are you doing it?

Joe Casabona: Right? You’re just kind of spinning your wheels and wasting time.

Nicole Osborne: Right.

Joe Casabona: Let me dig one more thing. You said find the link in the comments. Do you find… I haven’t prompted Nicole on this at all. So I don’t know if this is an answer she has prepared. But do you find that a pinned comment works better than like just like leaving it in the description, or do you do both?

Nicole Osborne: You know what? It’s so funny. Joe, this is one thing I’ve picked up by listening to one of your episodes. One of the big things, I’ve got to make a change. So I’m going to do that because you chatted about that with that lady and I’ve got that’s such a good idea. Because the idea is that everyone feels really shy about leaving comments.

So if you put something online, also make it an easy question. So don’t dig really deep. Like if I said, “What have you found the biggest struggle in growing your agency over the last 10 years?” No one is going to say it. But if you make an easy, they’re more likely to type something. And then the algorithm will see that as popular.

So yes, it’s something I’m going to do actually. At the moment, I’ve just pin a comment from my audience, you know, which comes in quickly and sounds good. But I think you’re right, to actually to be proactive and you publish it to go in and pin something like a really easy question or even pinning your lead magnet. That’s such a good one. “If you want more free tips, here’s the link again.” So I’m going to do that. So you see I learn by listening to your staff. Do you see?

Joe Casabona: That’s so funny. I think I recorded with her in November or something like that and I started doing that after our interview. And that’s one of the things that’s like on the TubeBuddy checklists, too, right? It’s like-

Nicole Osborne: Pin comment down.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, pin comment.

Nicole Osborne: Just to say, create your own one. Add your lead magnet.

Joe Casabona: That’s true. That’s a good point. So I’ve been trying to end my videos. This is where scripting would come in handy. I’ve been trying to end my videos by saying like, “What’s your favorite LearnDash feature or whatever?” And then I’ll pin a comment, answer, whatever. But yeah, I think maybe it’ll be a good one to punch the question. And then if you want, if you want my answers, or if you want my view on this, check out this lead magnet. And I think that that’s we super-

Nicole Osborne: And hook in the lead magnet. Hook in the lead magnet to find blah. If you want to know how… Really hook it in like that. Like most irresistible thing to just do next other than watching your video, or listening to your next podcast episode.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, wow. This feels as much as a good episode of the interview as it does a brainstorming session, which is awesome. But we’ve been talking for an hour and I do want to respect your time. I do need to ask you, though, do you have any trade secrets for us?

Nicole Osborne: So I would say what works really, really well is before you get so busy for your client work, start being really organized. Have actually three types of accelerator slots in your diary, booked in your diary. So whatever you need to do, treat it like a client project. So have a marketing accelerator slot, a processes accelerator slot, and then a sales accelerator slot.

And what I mean by that is like a regular one hour session or 90 minute session in your diary where you know it’s a marketing slot, I’ve got to create some content. Or if it’s a sales slot, I’ve got to write a proposal, chase that lead. So really be really regular about it. Because the more organized you are, the more you end up working on your business rather than in your business, which really is a secret sauce to success and growing, isn’t it, to work more in your business?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And time boxing which is that’s how I will cheekily summarize what you’ve said.

Nicole Osborne: I love it. Time boxing. A new word for me. Love it.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. It’s really important. This is again something I tell my coaching clients to do, right? How are you consistent? I batch episodes, right? It’s every Monday mornings and every Wednesday afternoon is when I record episodes. Thursday mornings are generally when I work on getting a bunch of podcast episodes out to my editor and my VA schedules.

But having that time on my calendar is really important. And I would just say something I’m experimenting with at this moment is time tracking better. And thanks to Apple shortcuts app and the Stream Deck, I can more easily hit timer buttons. Because something I’ve been really bad about is starting the timers and stopping with timers.

Like, for example, I hit the “I’m recording button” and my red recording light turns on upstairs so my family knows I’m recording, and my recording timer starts. I think that understanding where you spend your time and then making those accelerator slots. I really like that term. Time boxing sounds like you’re fighting time.

Nicole Osborne: Oh, no.

Joe Casabona: Accelerator slots sounds like you are definitely moving your business forward. I like that.

Nicole Osborne: I came up with one with a new client of mine. We’ve got to make it sound sexy. I got to sound sexy, otherwise we won’t stick to that.

Joe Casabona: I love it. Well, Nicole, this has been an absolute pleasure. It’s always fantastic talking to you. If people want to learn more about you, where can they find you?

Nicole Osborne: Oh, Joe, thanks for having me. Best place is my website www.wunderstars.com You will find all my blogs on there, link to YouTube, all my other social platforms. So come to our website. I can’t wait to see there. And also my agency growth eBook, which is so amazing. You really want to know how to grow your business. Get that free eBook.

Joe Casabona: Yes. Awesome. I will link to all of that and everything we talked about in the show notes over at streamlined.fm/258. Nicole, thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Nicole Osborne: Thank you, Joe.

Joe Casabona: And thank you to our sponsors Ahrefs, Nexcess, and TextExpander. If you want to hear Nicole and I talked more about changes in marketing and web development over the last 20 years, you can become a member over at joincreatorcrew.com. That’ll be linked over at streamlined.fm/258 as well. Everything you need to find will be over there. But thanks so much for listening and until next time, get out there and build something.