Build Your List Using ConvertKit with Angel Marie

Angel Marie: Going to sign up for a free plan and then creating that form or landing page, maybe with some wording, “I am offering this for free.” Or, “I have this upcoming course or upcoming masterclass.” Just stating it on there and then letting them know on that former landing page how you can bring certain results their way, that is what’s going to get people to subscribe, is the fact that they believe that you can help them if they give you their email address.

Intro: I am so excited to be talking to Angel Marie, the creator educator over at ConvertKit this week, and we’re talking about one of my favorite topics, building your list. I’ve become a huge proponent of this over the last couple of years, and the contributing factors have been this podcast, my move into products, and the education I got from the people over at ConvertKit, like Angel. This is such a rich episode, and I’m excited for you to hear it because we do talk about how you can go about building your list and, of course, how to use ConvertKit for that very thing. But there are a couple of housekeeping items that we need to get to first. First, Angel mentions a link specifically for you, the listener. Later, when she’s talking about how you can get a free convert account, that link is an affiliate link, and I may get a kickback for that if you use it. But don’t worry, it won’t cost you anything. As a matter of fact, the second housekeeping item is this. Since we recorded this episode, ConvertKit has updated the offer that comes with clicking that link. On top of the benefits Angel mentions, you will also get 100 free subscribers, and broadcasts will be unlocked. You’ll get a free to use ConvertKit account along with the other benefits that Angel mentioned, so definitely keep that in mind as you listen to the show.

Break: Before we get started, I want to tell you about my online membership and community, Creator Courses. I know that when you want to learn something new, the natural thing you probably do is go to Google or YouTube. I do the same thing, and that’s great for one-off projects. I used a YouTube video to learn how to change a light switch in my house, but I am not a big fan of YouTube for learning new skills. Because there are lots of videos on every topic, but “Which one is best and who do you trust? What order do you even watch the videos in, and will you get the support you need?” These are all things that YouTube or other potentially free videos can’t do for you. So, I started Creator Courses a few years ago with the idea of just putting online courses out there, and I decided to morph it into a membership last year. So stop wasting your time hunting and pecking for the learning resources and tools, over at Creator Courses. You can become a member and take all of the courses that we have to offer included in that membership, and those courses focus on everything from just basic WordPress up to learning how to build websites without code, something you don’t necessarily need to do in this day and age. All of the courses are developed by me, and if you listen regularly that I’ve been a developer for decades at this point, and I have lots of experience building websites. I’m a teacher at heart, and I’ve created courses for LinkedIn Learning and things that. On top of the courses, we’re also a community, and members get access to forums and Slack and office hours with me, so I just wanted to let about that and encourage you to join if you haven’t already. Listeners of this show, exclusively for listeners of the show, you can save 15% on all memberships, including the lifetime membership. All you have to do is visit CreatorCourses.com/build. Thanks so much, now let’s get on with the show.

Joe Casabona: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks, “How did you build that?” Today I am very excited, and my guest is Angel Marie. She is a creator educator over at ConvertKit, which is one of my favorite software tools. Angel, how are you doing today?

Angel: I’m doing good. Thank you, Joe. Happy to be here.

Joe: Thank you for coming on the show. I figured that today we can talk about the importance of any freelance or small business owner building their email list, and this is something that I didn’t realize I should do until I started selling products. I’m like, “I’ve been freelancing for 20 years. I should have started a long time ago.” Maybe we could start off with who you are, what you do, and what exactly does a creator educator over at ConvertKit do?

Angel: My role is basically producing and hosting online workshops on a weekly basis. I’m able to connect with our partners, our affiliates, really just top creators and online entrepreneurs that are making a successful living online, just doing everything that they love. It is just a part of my job to teach these workshops to aspiring creators and aspiring online entrepreneurs on how to get there, and the majority of what I teach is how to get there using email marketing. Because a lot of those top creators that I interview or that I work with, they are making a full time living because of email marketing, so it definitely holds a lot of value, and it’s just a huge passion of mine to be able to teach other aspiring entrepreneurs and freelancers and small business owners that same thing because of how valuable it is.

Joe: That’s fantastic. There’s a couple of things right there that I already want to touch on.

Angel: Yeah, let’s do it.

Joe: First of all, is it hard coming up with weekly webinars? Because this is something that I want to try to do on a monthly basis, and I’m like, “What do I even talk about?”

Angel: Right. Honestly, it’s not. I think that there’s so much to talk about when it comes to being a small business owner or an online entrepreneur. There’s a variety of different topics. I think with email marketing, you just touch base on the large broader points, but at the same time, making sure that you’re not skipping those smaller steps that they need to take to get there. I think that’s the main thing. So really, just taking those steps and breaking it down and making it into a workshop can be valuable to all of them.

Joe: That’s fantastic. You talk about partners, affiliates, people who are using email marketing as the main driver of their business. I know for a fact that there are some pretty big name people using ConvertKit, using email to drive their business. Pat Flynn recently put out a podcast episode about how email marketing is the “New,” I’ll use heavy quotes there, “New” best way to drive business. I think a lot of people think that social media is the way now. Facebook ads or Instagram stories, or whatever. But why is email marketing–? I’m just going to put it out there, why is email marketing better than those channels?

Angel: For sure. That’s a valid question because that’s a consistent misconception that a lot of creators or entrepreneurs think, is that social media is the way to go. Although it is when it comes to promoting yourself and just putting your content out there, it’s unbelievably important to have an email list along with that. Now social media, Instagram, Facebook, billions of people are on it. But at the same time, it’s a social platform. You can go on there, you can post your content, but Instagram and Facebook own everything that you put on there. There are so many algorithms and ownership that has to do with that when it comes to your email list, on the other hand, that is what you own. Which means that you can build those personable relationships. You can talk to people that are genuinely interested in your product or service, or you as a small business owner, in comparison to just going on Instagram and Facebook and talking about it. You actually build this list of super fans, almost. Super fans and future buyers that are really interested in what you have to say, what you’re offering, everything that you’re doing when it comes to your business. It blows me away at how effective email marketing is, and I honestly don’t think it’s ever going to go away. I think that this will be a marketing strategy that is so big to the point that it is going to remain consistent for years to come.

Joe: The big thing you mentioned is that you own your email list.

Angel: Yes.

Joe: Even if X, Y, Z company where you use email marketing, even if they go away tomorrow, you still have that list of people.

Angel: Exactly.

Joe: Whereas with Facebook and Twitter, there’s no real way to directly connect with those people, it’s almost I want to advertise my new Done For You podcast service, so I can either email my list– Which is people who opted in, or I can go on the street corner and just shout about it to whoever is walking by.

Angel: Exactly. That’s the thing too with Instagram, I’ve heard of some people who had problems with Instagram where Instagram just completely shut down their account. What happens when that occurs? You lose your following, you lose your followers, you lose all of your content, and there’s nothing you can do about it. But with an email list, it’s not that at all. You literally own that, which is why it’s just really important. I always say during the workshops that I teach, and I always say that having an email list of 10 people, 100 people, a thousand people, 10,000, and so on and so forth. That’s being in a room of those people and teaching to them and helping them in any way possible. You are leading them in some type of way, and that’s a really big deal. So I always am an advocate for that, for sure.

Joe: That’s great. Let’s say I have never started an email list before, but I have bought into your message, and I need to start one. What do I do? What do I do from here, how do I start?

Angel: Yeah, of course. First things first, the beautiful thing about it is you can start completely for free. I know some small business owners, maybe you’re not making any money online yet, and that is totally OK. Finding strategies and services that you can use for free are a huge help, which is what ConvertKit can definitely offer. You would just go on our ConvertKit free plan, and from there, you would build either a form or a landing page. Now, a form or a landing page is a place for viewers to go to where they can put in their name and their email address. Once you get that email address, in return, you can start communicating with them, and you can start emailing them, just really building those personal relationships so that you literally have an entire group of fans that are ready to buy from you when you’re ready to sell something. Super easy process to get started, I would just say going to sign up for a free plan and then creating that form or landing page with some wording like, “I am offering this for free,” or “I have this upcoming course or upcoming masterclass, or I have this service.” Just stating it on there and then letting them know on that former landing page how you can bring certain results their way. That is what’s going to get people to subscribe, is the fact that they believe that you can help them if they give you their email address. It’s a win situation there, you get their email address when they sign up, and in return, they get your help, they get your product, your service, whatever it is that you are offering.

Joe: Awesome. So, you started to talk about this a little bit. Is it good enough for me to just say, “Sign up for my mailing list?”

Angel: No. It’s funny because I’ve seen things like that, where people are just like, “Sign up for my newsletter, sign up to get emails from me.” When you really think about it, so many people overlook that. They might see that and they’re like, “I’m not going to sign up.” There’s no detail in that. There’s no want or need to grow a personal relationship, you’re not promoting anything. You’re really not even showing your personality. It’s more so, and you’re more so taking almost a selfish standpoint of just saying, “Get emails from me,” rather than saying, “I can help you in this way, so sign up if you would like to receive blank.” I always recommend taking that selfless type of perspective and stance so that when people are viewing it, they feel that. They literally are like, “This person wants to help me. They’re going to give me this if I provide them with my email address.” So yeah, I definitely recommend being unique, being yourself, always being result-oriented rather than just saying, “Let me send you emails.”

Joe: Almost like, not “Don’t do this for me, but do this for you.” Like, “Sign up for you.”

Angel: Exactly, yeah. It goes along with–

Joe: And that’s like barking a command at them. Like, “Do this. You’re here, now do this.”

Angel: Yeah, exactly. And think about it from your perspective, if I was walking down the street and somebody was barking at me to do something or demanding it, I wouldn’t want to do that.

Joe: Yeah, exactly.

Break: This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks. Do you remember when you started your small business? It was no small feat. It took lots of late nights, early mornings, and the occasional all-nighter. Bottom line, you’ve been insanely busy ever since. So, why not make things easier? My friends at FreshBooks have the solution. FreshBooks invoicing and accounting software is designed specifically for small business owners. It’s simple, intuitive, and keeps you way more organized than a dusty shoe box filled with crumbled receipts. As a side note, I told my accountant the first time that I used the shoe box method, and his face turned white. But in actuality, FreshBooks was one of the first things I bought when I started my business. I’ve been a FreshBooks user since 2009. It’s easily the best accounting, and invoice software for small business owners Create and send professional looking invoices in 30 seconds, and then get them paid 2 times faster with automated online payments. Nothing is better than sending out an invoice and getting it paid in the same day, and that’s happened for me with FreshBooks. You can also file expenses even quicker and keep them perfectly organized for tax time, and the best part is that FreshBooks grows alongside your business so you’ll always have the tools you need when you need them without ever having to learn the ins and outs of accounting. Now there are a lot of features on this list I have here to talk about, but I’m going to pick two of my favorites. The first is late payment reminders, and they are clutch. It’s one less thing that I need to worry about when making sure I get paid. I don’t have to keep track of exactly when I sent the invoice, and if I already sent a follow-up email or whether or not they viewed the email, all of that is taken care of inside FreshBooks. The other feature I like is the automated expenses. I connect my business credit card to FreshBooks, and my expenses automatically get imported. They are all there, ready for me and my accountant to review. It makes tax time easier for both of us, and it’s no secret that I love automation. These two features make my life a lot easier. After doing things by hand, FreshBooks is worth the price of admission just for those two things. Join the 24 million people who have used FreshBooks, and you can try it for 30 days for free. No catch, no credit card required. Go to FreshBooks.com/BuiltIt and enter “How I Built It” in the “How did you hear about us?” section to get started. Thanks so much to FreshBooks for supporting the show, and now let’s get back to it.

Joe: How important is the offering, and how can people come up with ideas? I’ve heard that you should have a different opt-in or content upgrade for every blog post, but if you blog regularly, that could sound like a daunting task. What should your strategy be for the content upgrade or offering? Or, the incentive to get people to sign up?

Angel: I’d say that it completely depends on the stage that you’re at in your business. If you’re more so at those beginning stages, and you’re like, “I can’t build an email list because I don’t have anything to sell yet.” That is the most– It’s just completely untrue. I say that because you can build an email list even if you don’t have anything to sell yet, so if you’re in that stage, I would say that your incentive could be something as simple as “Sign up to receive updates regarding my latest blog posts and free gifts.” Maybe you create some free content pieces, and maybe you’re creating some free workbooks or guides to help people. I did that a lot when I first started my own side hustle, and I still do that. You will be amazed at how many people subscribe because they want that free incentive, and they want that free offering. Then I would say if you’re more so in those intermediate or advanced stages in your business, definitely dive deep into what your product or service is. Just going back to the fact of how it can help people. Let’s say you have some type of– I don’t know. Name a product for me, Joe. Just as an example.

Joe: I’m going to selfishly say my course, Podcast Liftoff.

Angel: There we go. Your course, Podcast Liftoff. That’s perfect. In that case, you already know who your audience is. Dive deeper into what exactly your topic and the content is in that, pick out the pieces in that content that stand out, that matter that are important, that are going to catch the viewer’s attention when they see this landing page or forum that you have. Rather than just saying, “Join my podcast course,” you’re giving a little more detail. Again, just taking that selfless standpoint. “If you would like, join this because this can do this for you” type of feel. I definitely say it depends on what stage you’re at in your business, but incentives go a long way, and thinking deep about what offer you would be willing to give rather than just throwing them something their way is super important because people can feel that personality. They can feel if you’re being caring or if you’re being personable towards them.

Joe: Great. That’s great advice. We got similar advice from previous guests, Jessica Lawlor. I will link to her episode in the show notes over at HowIBuilt.it. But we have the incentive, and people are signing up for the list. Now, what do I send them? This is something that I personally have struggled with. Last year I found something that works for me and my audience, but do I just send them the blog post that I’ve made public? Do I create all new content for them? Do I curate links? How do I come up with a content strategy for my newsletter?

Angel: I definitely recommend having a content strategy in place. However, the easiest, most simple advice that I could give anybody when it comes to emailing your subscribers is to talk to them as if you’re talking to your best friend. When I say that, I’m not saying “Share everything that’s private in your life.” But I’m more so saying, “It doesn’t have to be some corporate email where you are constantly selling. It doesn’t even have to be an email where you’re constantly giving them content. Maybe it could be an email just talking about a trip you just went on. Or a childhood memory, talking about what you learned from that. Anything that has to do with growing relationships, where they can get to know you as a person and as a leader, as an entrepreneur, a bit better. That goes a long way because when you build up that type of relationship, you are setting yourself up for success by allowing them to feel more comfortable to actually buy from you. Now throughout sending those friendly emails, just telling them maybe a little bit of a story or a life update, of course, having a content strategy is important. Sending them helpful guides, sending them recent blog posts, letting them know that you would love for them to check it out. You would love for them to give feedback again, always taking that selfless standpoint especially if you’re in those beginning stages, for sure. I would definitely say every email should not be a sales email. Some, of course, should be. Because you want to make those sales, but not every single one because otherwise, you’re probably going to get a lot of unsubscribes, because people feel like you’re not connecting with them.

Joe: So, talk about a trip or a childhood memory, that’s something that I would have never thought of. But you’re right, and it’s all about growing the relationship because people need to know and trust you before they are willing to buy from you.

Angel: Exactly.

Joe: Is there a sweet spot for how often you should send emails? Because we’ve both probably seen this. I signed up for a mailing list, I don’t get an email until they’re ready to sell something, and then I don’t remember who they are. Then I get emails from people two times a day or a few times a week. What do you think is the sweet spot?

Angel: I honestly would recommend once a week. I think that’s a great balance. I have seen certain entrepreneurs email a couple times a week, even up to three or four times weekly, and that’s just dependent on how your audience is. Not everybody’s audience is going to be the same, everybody’s audience is going to be different. Which is why it’s important to not only grow an email list but to understand who your people are. That’s why we’re talking about talking to them as if you’re a friend. Just understanding them, they understand you and you get more of a feel for who they are so that you get a sense of “OK. They seem like the kind of group that would not want to get an email from me three times a week, so let me just do once a week. Maybe I should do bi-weekly.” I say it depends on the research of your actual audience. On average, once a week is a great cadence when it comes to sending those emails and always checking up on them, giving them free gifts, content, blog posts, and then, of course, anything that you’re selling. Make sure that they know about it because out of anybody, and your email list is going to be the first ones to buy.

Joe: Great. Once a week sounds good. That’s what I do, and it sounds good to me. I don’t feel like I’m bombarding them, even the sales sequences that you’re supposed to have, “Email them on this day, and then two days later–” That still feels, like I do it, but it still feels like too much to me.

Angel: Right.

Joe: That’s fantastic. But you also mentioned that different people might like different things, so let’s get into the specifics of ConvertKit. I switched from a different mailing list manager– What’s the general category called, is it CRM? It’s not CRM.

Angel: You’re talking about an email service provider? ESP?

Joe: I switched from one to ConvertKit, and after that, I saw considerable growth in my list and better interactions from my list. That’s why I wanted to have you on the show because ConvertKit has legitimately helped my business. You’re more expensive than the free one I was using, but I’ve also made infinitely more money off of my list through ConvertKit. So, totally worth the value.

Angel: Right, so it’s worth it.

Joe: Yeah. You talked about how ConvertKit has a free plan to start collecting email addresses.

Angel: Yes.

Joe: What do I do once I’m ready to start sending emails? What are the things that a new ConvertKit user should know?

Angel: Yeah, of course. First things first is just to understand all of the features that are inside of ConvertKit, based off of which plan you are on. Now I highly encourage anyone to sign up for a ConvertKit free plan because you can start building a list right off the bat completely for free. In the free plan, you can– There’s a feature where you are able to refer your friends, meaning the more friends you refer, the more features you are able to unlock when it comes to subscribers and broadcast. Now when you unlock the subscriber feature, you are able to see the names of your subscribers and where exactly they came from. Then if you unlock the broadcast feature, you’re able to send emails to your people, which is, of course, what we want to do. Now that’s only in the free plan, where you’re able to build landing pages for free and then refer your friends so that you can unlock the subscriber and broadcast feature so you can start sending those emails. I would definitely say that would be the next steps in a free plan. Then of course, if you’re wanting to upgrade to have more features and ConvertKit just like you do, Joe, such as setting up automations and sequences, all that good stuff. That one is going to be an actual paid plan that you would be on monthly. From that standpoint, I would recommend going into ConvertKit and making sure that you have a form or a landing page setup and start collecting those subscribers. If you already have subscribers, it is so easy to import them over into ConvertKit. I’m talking really simple. Then from there, get used to the account, your content in the account, how that would work. Then just start emailing them. Start understanding the cadence within ConvertKit of how you can easily email them with a user-friendly interface that ConvertKit has. So, that would be my advice. Just get to know it, play around with it, make sure that you understand it so that you can start thinking on your marketing strategy when it comes to emails.

Joe: One of the nice things about the free plan is that you can experiment, you can create a landing page without paying any money. You can create forms or a landing page and then see what’s converting the best to see what offers people are willing to sign up for.

Angel: Yeah, and that’s good point, Joe. Because you could create multiple landing pages with different offers and see which ones are getting the most traffic, and that way, you can take the one that got the most traffic and bump it up even more. Maybe that was just– Let’s say that was a chapter of a book. Let’s say you’re an author, you have a book, and on this landing page, you’re promoting a free chapter. Maybe you have a couple other landing pages promoting something else. If that free chapter did well, you can take that and upgrade the content to the point where you can now promote your entire book to people that you know are going to subscribe to getting updates and purchasing it, because that’s the one that converted the most. So, yeah. Play around with it and get used to it, just get a feel for how your product and service can coincide in a completely user-friendly way within ConvertKit.

Break: Today’s episode is brought to you by Smile and their product TextExpander. Save time typing and boost your productivity with TextExpander. You know I’m all about automation, and TextExpander is a great way to get started with automation. It allows you to create your own snippets for repetitive text that you tend to use everywhere. Add the text, create a snippet, and boom. Save precious time and keystrokes. One of my favorite snippets is for my address. Instead of typing out my full address and risking typos, I simply type “$ADDR,” and TextExpander does the rest filling in my full address for me. I also have snippets for my street, my city, and my zip code. But that’s not all TextExpander does, with its advance snippets, you can create fill-ins, pop up fields, and more. You can even use JavaScript or Apple script. Another one of my favorite and most used snippets is when I type “PPT.” That will take whatever text I have on my clipboard and convert it to plain text, so I’m no longer fighting formatting when I copy from a word document, a Google doc, or a plain HTML page like a website. I also use it for common links, email messages, which I can completely customize with fill-ins and drop-down menus, and even date calculations. I’m currently writing a book, and TextExpander has been instrumental with that. TextExpander is available on Mac OS, Windows, Chrome, iPhone, and iPad. So, pretty much anywhere you do computing. If you’ve been curious about trying TextExpander or automation in general, now’s the time. As a listener, you can get 20% off your first year, just visit TextExpander.com/podcast and let them know How I Built It sent you. That’s TextExpander.com/podcast for 20% off your first year. And now, back to the show.

Joe: If you do have multiple landing pages, one of my favorite features of ConvertKit– Actually, the reason that I moved over to ConvertKit was the tagging and segmenting. I can have a single person who bought the Podcast Liftoff course. They also signed up for the free book chapter, and I have all that nicely organized, so I don’t have to bombard them with every email, just the relevant ones.

Angel: Yes. It is so nice. Now, the tagging and segmenting ability is only available in the pay plan, which is completely up to anyone to upgrade. But it is so incredible, because, in that way when you segment your audience, you’re breaking them up into groups. You can tag each subscriber and put those tags into specific groups or “Segments” is what we call it. Now, these segments, you are able to speak to each one directly because you have already grouped them based off of their interests. Now, of course, your audience, they are interested in your product or service because they had subscribed to be a part of your email list. However, everybody’s different. Everybody has different interests. They have different likes, they want different things. For example, let’s say I have a health and wellness website. I have a lot of people in my audience signing up because they’re into health and wellness, but let’s say I put out different landing pages regarding different things that I have going on. A lot of things could fit into health and wellness. Meditation, fitness, food. Let’s say it’s those three, you can break off subscribers into segments based off of which category they’re more interested in underneath health and wellness. Is it meditation? Is it food? Is it fitness? That way, you’re able to group those people together, and then send a direct email when you have something specific that they will be interested in. For example, let’s say I have a meditation course coming up. I know exactly who I’m going to send that to. All the people that are interested in meditation, because they’re going to buy from me. It works in a beautiful way. Again, just to target and speak more directly to the wants and needs of the people in your audience.

Joe: Yeah, and this is why I wanted to bring it up. It is a page feature, but this is part of the reason why ConvertKit has been worth it to me. About half of my list are people who are interested in my podcast offerings. From a little trial and error, I saw that they weren’t interested in a weekly newsletter, or at least my weekly newsletter that goes out to my normal subscriber list. So once a month, they get a podcast resource roundup, and that does well. High open rates, high click rates, and I know as soon as I launch that course– By the time this comes out, it should be out already. As soon as I launch that course, they’re the first people I’m going to tell about it, and I’m going to be like, “Thank you for being on the list. Here’s an exclusive discount just for you. Thank you for expressing your interest in my podcast offerings.” We have the clear path now for somebody who wants to build a list, you can sign up with ConvertKit, and you can start building your lists that way. You can even start referring people– I like this because you can start referring people to unlock certain levels without really paying for it.

Angel: Exactly.

Joe: I suspect that’s up to a certain number of subscribers, or something like that.

Angel: Yes. Up to 1,000 subscribers, yes.

Joe: Cool. Which is again, my list hovers around 1,000. I don’t have a gigantic list, but again it’s 1,000 people who trust me.

Angel: And that’s amazing. You are literally on stage in front of a thousand people, and that goes a long way. Definitely, something to be proud of.

Joe: Awesome. So this has been fantastic. I don’t have a specific question here, but you do educational content for ConvertKit. What are some questions that I–? What is maybe a question I didn’t ask that you find is really useful to your audience? I’m just springing this on you, but I’m sure there’s something I don’t know I know I should ask. Or, I know I don’t know I should ask.

Angel: I think we covered a lot. I know we at ConvertKit truly believe in the fact that the future belongs to creators, it literally belongs to creators and online entrepreneurs that are wanting to make a living doing what they love. That is literally what we live by. It’s exactly why we do what we do, and it’s why I teach educational content on a weekly basis. But I think we covered a lot of things, just regarding the free plan and if they’re wanting to upgrade, exactly how to do that and all that good stuff. Then, of course, being authentic and organic in your emails and coming off as that friend is something that we promote more than anything as well, which we covered too.

Joe: Great. Fantastic. So, if people want to sign up for a ConvertKit free account, where can they go?

Angel: Yes. Signing up for a ConvertKit free account to start building your list, you can just head to ConvertKit.com/JC116. Once you click that, you’ll be automatically redirected to sign up for the free plan. Again, completely for free. No credit card required. This just gives you the chance to start building that list. Have a entire group of super fans and future buyers, because you deserve it. As a small business owner, you definitely deserve that.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely. That’s fantastic. Angel, I appreciate your time today, but I do need to ask you my favorite question, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us?

Angel: Trade secrets. Quick, what is a trade secret? I think I saw that in your thing, I might have missed that though.

Joe: Yeah, for sure. Joel, we can edit this part out too. I’ll make a timestamp note. It’s just any general piece of advice, and it doesn’t have to be related to what we’ve talked about. It’s just something that you’ve found is very helpful in the way you either run your business or teach people.

Angel: OK, great. Perfect. Cool. I just didn’t want to sound like an idiot. I wanted to make sure I knew what that was exactly.

Joe: Absolutely, cool.

Angel: OK, go ahead. Do you want to ask me that question again?

Joe: So, I do need to ask you my favorite question, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us?

Angel: Yes. I would say do not copy everything that you are seeing other online entrepreneurs do. When I say that, I’m saying you can model them because, of course, they are successful. They made a living doing what they love, and of course, you want that same thing. You can model after their strategies, but if you lose the authenticity of yourself in that process, it’s not going to be worth it. Not for you and also not for the people that are subscribing, watching you, buying your stuff, buying your content. Definitely be yourself and believe in the fact that people want to listen. People want to hear what you have to say, people want to buy from you, people want to be your clients, whatever your niche or your brand is, believe in that and trust in that and be organic in that, and you will have success.

Joe: I absolutely love that, and it makes perfect sense. I have experienced that personally. I did videos for a friend, I tried to do it in his style, and he was like, “What are you doing?” He’s like, “I hired you to do it in your style.”

Angel: Right, like, “Why are you talking like me?”

Joe: Yeah, exactly. I feel like that would probably be like Justin Bieber trying to sing Meatloaf songs like Meatloaf. Two very different artists.

Angel: Exactly.

Joe: I’m on a big Meatloaf kick this week. I don’t know, I’ve just been really into Bat out of Hell.

Angel: I’ve got to give that a shot.

Joe: He’s very top of mind. Fantastic. Angel, thanks so much again for joining us. Where can people find you?

Angel: Yeah, of course. You can find me on Instagram. @AngelMarieOfficial that is my main source of posting my own side hustle content. Of course, follow @ConvertKit on Instagram too, ConvertKit.com, to keep up with any online workshops or resources that we can give you to help you out. Then also, side hustle of my own is YourBeautyInTheMaking.com in case you’d ever like to check that out as well.

Joe: All right. I will link all of that and everything we talked about in the show notes, including that link to sign up for a free ConvertKit account. That’s ConvertKit.com/JC– Those are my initials, JC116. Angel, thanks again for coming on the show. I appreciate it.

Angel: Thank you, it was a great time. I appreciate you, Joe.

Outro: Thanks so much to Angel for joining us this week. This was such a great episode, and it might be one of my favorites because not only does she give you great advice about how to create a compelling offer for your landing page or form to start building your list, but she also gave me free advice for my own list building tool kit. I think we all learned something this week. Again, the link that she mentioned is ConvertKit.com/JC116. That is an affiliate link, and I may get a kickback if you use it, but it does not cost you anything. On top of it not costing you anything, you also get a little bit extra that you don’t usually get from signing up for a free ConvertKit account. That is 100 free subscribers and access to broadcast. So again, that happened since we recorded this episode. We talked in the episode about how you can refer or pay to unlock subscribers and broadcasts, and since we recorded that episode ConvertKit has updated their offer associated with that link so that you get those for free, a limited set of those for free. So, super exciting. You can start gathering and sending to email addresses using that link, again it’s ConvertKit.com/JC116. Again, I just can’t thank Angel enough for coming on the show. If you liked this episode, be sure to give us a rating and review over at Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. All of the links– There’s a bunch of stuff that we talked about, not just that one ConvertKit link. We talked about a bunch of links. If you want to get those, you can head on over to HowIBuilt.it/157. Thanks again to sponsors, TextExpander and FreshBooks, two tools I know and love, and I’m a big fan of. Definitely check them out as well. I think that’s everything, so go forth and start building your list. Thanks so much for spending part of your day with me over here at How I Built It. Until next time, get out there and build something.