The Many Hats of a Small Business Owner with Daniel Espinoza

Intro: Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 103 of How I Built It. Today I’m talking to Daniel Espinoza, and he does a whole lot of stuff. He creates in depth and big e-commerce websites for clients, he sells his own plugins, and a lot more. He’s also a family man, which we’ll talk about. I appreciate all of the advice that Daniel was able to give us in this episode. He talks about things like building a lifestyle business, which is something that I’m trying to do. I want to balance life and family and running my own business, and I don’t want to be married to my job. I’m trying to build a business that supports the life I want to lead, and he talks a lot about that too. He also offers good advice about launching and a whole bunch of other things, so again I’m excited about this episode. I’m glad that Daniel was able to give me some of his time and advice because we are in– He’s maybe a couple of years ahead of the current situation that I’m in, and to look into the future a little bit was valuable for me.

We’ll get into all of that in a minute, and I do want to tell you that this episode is sponsored by Pantheon and by Creator Courses. On the day this episode comes out, we are looking at about a week until WordPress 5.0 and Gutenberg, so maybe it’s already out as you listen to this. There’s a lot of concern around what that means for developers and for our clients, and how we need to handle upgrades. I have a lot of courses available around that subject. I have a course that shows you how to use Gutenberg if you’re a user and you’re curious how the interface is going to change, and that’s very affordable. If you’re a freelancer I include that course in my Gutenberg for Freelancers course, but you will also learn how to work with your clients and create an upgrade plan and communicate these changes to them, so there’s that too. If you’re a theme developer, there’s a theming for Gutenberg course that I developed with my friend Zach Gordon. You can find all of those over at CreatorCourses.com/Gutenberg, and you can get a special discount by using the coupon code BUILDIT at checkout. Go ahead and check those out over at CreatorCourses.com/Gutenberg. You’ll hear about Pantheon later on in the show. For now, let’s get started.

Joe Casabona: Daniel, how are you today?

Daniel Espinoza: I’m doing a great, Joe. I’m doing great. Thanks for asking.

Joe: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. Daniel and I, we hung out around each other. We have similar circles, and we got in touch because I was checking out one of his plugins, and then we got to talking about building a lifestyle business. That’s what we’re talking about today.

Daniel: Definitely.

Joe: Nice. Why don’t we start off with a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Daniel: Great. My name is Daniel Espinoza, and I work online mostly in the WooCommerce space. I have two businesses, and one is Grow Development which is a WooCommerce agency that focuses on mostly recently subscription sites. I help large subscription sites fine-tune their business, making sure that the subscriptions happen correctly and on time. They can do reporting, and they can add functionality, the wheels keep turning on these large subscription businesses. I also support all of ConvertKit’s WordPress plugins, so they’re another big client. I also have a more traditional WordPress plugin marketplace that came out of a previous life of being a WooThemes employee, and a plugin developer since before WooCommerce was WooCommerce.

I built for Jigoshop back in the day, and we went through that transition of becoming WooCommerce, and building plugins, and when AD had his Summer of Code where they wanted to get as many plugins written for a fledgling WooCommerce as possible, I helped, and I built like four or five payment gateways that summer. So from that, now I’m focusing on store owners who do subscriptions and helping them with their challenges. But the many hats is a real thing, and I have an inside joke with some Slack buddies of mine that I’m constantly switching hats throughout the day. From support tickets to a client meeting to writing code to figuring out what’s next for the agency, to doing marketing and making videos and blog posts. It’s fun. All of it is interesting work, and I do it from a spare bedroom in my house. It’s stuff that I’ve chosen to do, and I like doing.

Joe: That’s fantastic. We were talking a little bit before we started recording about the reasons why you decided to get into this line of work, and you mentioned Start with Why, which is one of my favorite books. It’s excellent, and I’ll link it in the show notes. It’s one I often recommend. Can you maybe talk about how reading that book changed your perspective on running a business? I know that’s a very Terry Gross NPR question, but it’s a good one to ask.

Daniel: Definitely. I read the book in 2014 or 2015, and I started my business– Before working online, I worked at a bank in an IT department. Khakis and business casual and cubicles. Then my wife had our first child, and she started staying home to care for our daughter, and that’s around the time in the late 2000s when Freelance Switch was going on and the four-hour work week came out, and ThemeForest was getting started. A lot of talk was happening about becoming a freelancer, so I thought “I can code. I can do this,” and I threw a couple of opportune meetings. I got a first client and then I quit my job, full of stars and dollar signs in my eyes and this was 2018. What else happened in 2018? Excuse me, in 2008.

That was the market crash of real estate and stuff. But I survived that, it was fine. When I read Start with Why it fine-tuned the reason and brought back the reason that I had started working for myself, and it was that I didn’t want to be stuck at a code deployment for a bank over a weekend. Literally staying there 24 hours, because these are ATMs that you’re deploying code to. I didn’t want to be stuck there if it wasn’t my choice just because I was an ancillary part of this large team, and I wanted to be with my family. I wanted to be with people I love and doing things that I  like, so enabling this lifestyle of freedom of location and freedom of choice, just freedom of choosing things that I want to do as opposed to having them put on me.

That’s what it was all about and my why, I succinctly put into a sentence in a blog post was, “My Why is to run a business that allows me to spend as much time with my family, traveling the world, and doing work that I love.” I’ve reached that point and gotten to do cool things online, hang out with my family, my kids are, and that’s a decision that came from wanting to travel. We haven’t traveled a lot in the last couple of years, but we’ve kept that decision because it fits the Why also. We don’t want to wake up at 6 AM to an alarm clock to get the kids to school. We love teaching them and doing homeschool-type stuff. The businesses are what help that to happen. They pay the checks, and they write the checks for our lifestyle.

Joe: That’s fantastic. You and I have similar reasoning, because I was working in an agency before I went out on my own about a year or so ago and the birth of my daughter was the impetus of that. The agency life was a good single lifestyle because I loved staying up super late and writing code and things like that. But now I want to spend time with my kid.

Daniel: They’re cute, right? You don’t want to leave them.

Joe: Exactly. I’m fortunate, much like you, that we have a babysitter who is here. I work from home so at lunchtime or if I’m not doing anything I’ll go downstairs and say hi to the kiddo and spend a few minutes with her. Very fortunate in that sense. But I also  that reasoning because a lot of people start a business thinking, “This is the best way to get rich.” Perhaps it is. We talk about the hockey stick growth, where it’s low, low, low, and then high but I don’t have any delusions of grandeur that I’m going to be a multimillionaire because I’m not working sixteen hours. I’m not doing the Gary V lifestyle. I’m working the eight to ten hours a day and then spending as much time as I can with my family. So I love that, and I just wanted you to say it on the show.

Daniel: Yeah, totally.

Joe: You also mentioned you’ve niched down to subscription sites, and you manage these plugins.

Daniel: Right.

Joe: I always like to ask, what research did you do in either developing a plugin or making the decision? I want to target that at your decision to do subscription sites because I know that there’s a lot of moving parts to subscription sites and it’s incredibly important to have somebody who understands them well. So, what was your decision-making process with that?

Daniel: The four year ago time, when you and I were networking around each other. I haven’t been to a WordCamp in over a year. The last one was local San Antonio, maybe 18 months ago I went to Atlanta. But I’ve stopped doing that, previously I was traveling for a lot of WordCamps and going to events that– What was it? The WooConferences and–

Joe: WooCon, PressNomics–

Daniel: PressNomics, thank you. Gosh. Totally blanked out on that. Through that, I met a lot of great people, and I don’t look down on doing that. It’s a great way to build your network and connect with people that are fun and building this WordPress economy. But I backed off on that, so through that, I got a lot of referrals for WordPress work and for WooCommerce work, for building plugins and for building sites. I don’t do themes because I’m not a front-end guy, and I’m okay with that in my soul. I have come to terms with that. But the projects, they chose me. The projects that kept coming back were these subscription sites. Understanding the ins and outs of the WooCommerce subscriptions plugin built by ProsPress. That code base is a level of difficulty or a level of challenge that is above and beyond a normal WooCommerce site. It’s a whole ecosystem unto itself, on top of WooCommerce on top of WordPress.

So being able to say, “I can do what you’re looking for, doing custom scheduling or whatever the business is wanting. I can do that fairly quickly for a good price.” People like that, and subscriptions folks, they have the holy grail of recurring revenue, and they can forecast out months of what their money will be. They have more money and more wiggle room to keep someone, a developer like myself or an agency on staff to handle the problems that they’re having. It’s not a one and done type project. I liked that aspect, and I like building the relationship with the store owner because they get to go off and focus on their product, they get to focus on their marketing, and we keep the site running smoothly. When they come to us, and they’re like, “OK. We’re ready to add a wish list functionality,” or, “We’re ready to add a refer a friend functionality.” I can say, “OK here’s our options on the pre-built plugin landscape, and then here’s if we put some custom code in. This is what it will look like.” Then they make their choice and boom we’re off. It’s a different dynamic than someone coming in the door and saying, “I want this site built.” And they have a price built in their head that they’re looking for, that $10  an hour type of thing.

Then educating that person into a project, and then serving them through the project and then trying to do a follow-up. It’s a whole different thing. We have we have a weekly call with the site owner, and we have ongoing conversations. They mentioned something we take note of, and a month later we’ll bring it back, and they’ll say, “I did want to work on that. We have a lull in other things, let’s work on that project now.”  It’s an ongoing relationship, and it suits my personality well to have those instead of the revolving door of projects, and so when I said “It chose me,” it was just that I had a couple of these and now this is what I look for. We have several sites that we serve, and I know who they are and what their business model looks like, so if somebody comes in looking for a theme, I say, “I’m glad you came. It’s nice to meet you, but you’re going to be better served going over here.”

Break: Today’s episode is brought to you by Pantheon. WordPress 5.0 and the new editor Gutenberg are coming. Are you prepared? Do you want to learn about the changes in advance? Pantheon has gathered resources to help you prepare, including webinars and tutorials. Pantheon also has made it easy and free to try Gutenberg with your site before the official launch. Visit Pantheon.io/Gutenberg. Let them know that How I Built, It sent you. Now, back to the show.

Joe: Something you said about the $10 an hour website, people running subscription sites can immediately see the value in your work.

Daniel: Definitely.

Joe: If I’m making a brochure site for somebody, it’s hard to attach direct dollars to a brochure site. Because how many people are going to use the contact form, and then how many of those people are going to become paying customers? “You built me a subscription thing, and now I’m making even $1,000 in monthly recurring revenue. Great. I  now know how valuable you are to me. You’re at least $12,000 a year valuable.”

Daniel: If our fees are a percentage of that, we can say  “With a current site we have, our fees I can see are less than 10% of their monthly revenues. So I can say, “For the same fee structure we can grow your monthly revenue so that we can become an even smaller percentage and a smaller expense for your company, and build on top of that. We know we know how we built your site. We know where the problem points are. We can optimize your checkout, and we can speed up certain pages, we can fix your subscription renewals to run faster and take up less processing. Doing all of these things comes from an intimate knowledge of the site and the code, and how it’s built.

Joe: That’s brilliant. On that same token, mentioning percentages and stuff like that. I’ve quoted out e-commerce website, and somebody was  like “We’re going to have thirty thousand products on the website.” It was just pulling stuff from various APIs, and I quoted him at $20,000 or something. And he was like, “That’s a lot of money,” and I’m like, “That’s less than $1 a product. That’s like $1.50, or $0.75 a product or something like that.”

Daniel: What’s funny about that, I was going through my email from a decade ago when I started out, and I started out building e-commerce sites. My email had hit the threshold. It was at 80%, so I was like “This is ridiculous. Let me remove– What is taking up this space?”  I did a search for anything over five meg and back in 2008, 2009, 2010 I was getting emailed these Photoshop files for these e-commerce sites that I was building out a theme for. I had this string of emails of this site’s PSD, this site PSD. I was talking to my wife, and I was like, “I have so many of these files.” And she said, “Are any of those sites still online?” And I said, “I don’t think they are.”

And I searched for a couple, and they’re definitely online. So that’s also the difference, I felt bad. So much money and effort was put into the design of this site before it launched, and then it launched. Then how much effort was put into the building the customer base? The marketing, the long-term sustainability of the business? I grieved a little bit for that. I am sorry that they didn’t make it. But my customers now have revenue, they have a marketing plan, they have product-market fit, and they have all those buzzwords. They’re making money. I’m glad to be a part of that and help push that along and make it even bigger for them.

Joe: That’s fantastic. I’m enjoying this line of thinking. I didn’t prep you for this, but for the title question of how did you build it, maybe we could talk about things that you need to think about when building a subscription site. Would that be cool?

Daniel: Definitely.

Joe: Awesome. Let’s take a random subscription site. How did you build it?

Daniel: The stack that I mentioned, the WordPress WooCommerce, WooCommerce Subscriptions. The cost is only for WooCommerce Subscriptions on the plugin inside, just straight out of the box you can set that up. WooCommerce Subscriptions is maybe $199 for a year license. You can set that up, put a product on there that will recur monthly for whatever cost. $25, $50, $49 or whatever, and then start marketing that day one. If it’s access to a membership site or to a newsletter or something like that, that’s all it takes, and you’re in the door. After that then you can start, if you’re shipping a product then you have costs with fulfillment and actual production and cost of goods, then that goes from there. But having a website that will handle subscriptions for you, it’s a low barrier to entry.

Joe: Nice. Are there any particular themes that you like to work with, or are they generally custom developed themes?

Daniel: They are usually a child theme of Storefront which is built by the WooCommerce team. I have a couple of custom built themes, I would advise against custom built themes because they’re pain for future developers to maintain. On my sites, I use Array Themes, and then Storefront for other stuff. Shop Plugins, we’re switching. We started with a ThemeForest theme from Astoundify, and then we’re switching over to Array Themes checkout because it works well, the EDD. Yes, we are a WooCommerce plugin developer selling on EDD, which may sound funny but when we started Shop Plugins in 2014, it was the best solution for handling software licenses and a lot of the stuff that freemium and  Freemius and some of the other solutions that exist now that didn’t exist back then. EDD’s still going strong, so we’re glad to be– And we sold EDD plugins previously in a previous life, but it is still going strong, and that’s what we built that site with.

Joe: Nice. I’m a big fan of the folks over at EDD, and I just interviewed Vova Feldman recently about Freemius.

Daniel: It’s a great product. I built it into a plugin for a client, and it works well, and all the features. He can focus on adding features to that integration, and it’s taking off.

Joe: Absolutely. I’m thinking about selling a few of my own plugins, and I’m seriously considering Freemius because that’s not the main focus of my business, building online courses is. I would much rather– I’m happy to give them a higher percentage if I don’t have to worry about anything.

Daniel: That’s true.

Joe: Developers can easily fall into the trap of, “I can build this, so I’m going to build it myself.” But  I’ve matured in the last few years, maybe having a kid has helped. I don’t have time to do all of this stuff all the time.

Daniel: That’s right.

Joe: The other question I wanted to ask about the subscriptions, and this is a question that I personally get a lot when I’m coaching freelancers or something like that, is who pays for the WooCommerce subscriptions plugin? Do you have your client do that, or do you pay for it and then pass on the cost to them?

Daniel: The client pays for everything. They handle it, and it’s just a business expense for them. WooCommerce.com has a great feature where you can add another email address as a developer or an advocate or something, so when I log into WooCommerce.com, I have a little dropdown that has all my clients in there. I can switch over to their account and pull new versions because we don’t do automatic updates on sites, we have a workflow for pushing updates. I can pull new versions of code there as that customer. That’s a great feature for managing multiple client’s downloads. They pay for the license, but I get access.

Joe: That’s truly fantastic because I’ve certainly run into that. I had a client recently who was the designer for the site. So I was two people removed from the client, and he’s like “Can’t I just use your license?” I’m like, “No you cannot.”

Daniel: Because you’re going to forget it’s out there, and then following up. I inherited this site, or I had a customer come to me who was, but they were hurting, several of the things didn’t work on the site. It was a digital downloads type marketplace, and they’re still with me. In September I rebuilt their whole Amazon AWS site in Elastic Beanstalk, and it’s humming now. It’s running great. But we had to track down all of the licenses that the developer had, and they weren’t on a great relationship because there is outstanding payment and promises that weren’t kept, and all that. They ended up– They didn’t care. They wanted to move forward, they just cut clean, and then I had them repurchase what we needed through WooCommerce and give me access. I always tell them, “You own everything. It’s your AWS account. It’s your licenses. It’s your MailChimp account,” or whatever. I’m integrating, and then I leave. I have a document that lists what integrations are on it, but you have all the keys to the kingdom. It’s your site.

Joe: Absolutely. That’s why I said, “My God if I disappear one day then you’re out of luck. What if the client decides they don’t want this anymore but don’t tell anybody?” It’s better for the client to own things. On that same token,  I want to get philosophical again, which is not characteristic of me on the show. But you mentioned that we’re talking about having the clients buy all of the licenses, and generally they’re going to have one site, but a lot of the licensing for plugins and you sell plugins maybe your licensing is the same way. It’s based on the number of sites used, where it’s one site, five site, unlimited sites. How do you feel about that pricing? Do you think we’re evolving out of that type of pricing because more people are encouraging the clients? Or do you think that the developer license is still a  valuable thing for a lot of people?

Daniel: A developer license is valuable. On Shop Plugins I don’t have the feature of sharing licenses with your developer. If someone bought a plugin on Shop Plugins and they wanted to share it with a developer, they’d have to share credentials, login information. We don’t get a lot of requests for that feature, so we’re not going to build it. But we get a lot of purchases for, we have a one site license which might be $49, and then we have a two to five site license that is made possible through the software licenses plugin from EDD. We implemented it, which it’s a certain percentage higher than like 89. Maybe it’s not twice as much, but it’s a little bit less and incentivizes buying the higher price point and getting the extra licenses. A lot of clients, or excuse me, a lot of customers buying plugins who are agencies.

I don’t know what the numbers are off the top of my head, but they are using it on multiple sites. There definitely is a use case for that, and they’re matching that plugin on multiple projects. It’s up to them. It’s on them to maintain those licenses. I have had some support requests come in saying “I inherited this site. We think we have a license, but we’re not sure.” And I’ll do some searching and find the site and find the old invoice and say, “It was this person. Can you tell me their name?” And they’re like, “Yeah. It’s this person,  this designer who previously worked on it.” I can line it up, and I’m small enough to where I can do that type of legwork and then grant them the rest of that license. Or they buy another one, and they’re OK with that.

Break: Today’s episode is brought to you by Pantheon. WordPress 5.0 and the new editor Gutenberg are coming. Are you prepared? Do you want to learn about the changes in advance? Pantheon has gathered resources to help you prepare, including webinars and tutorials. Pantheon also has made it easy and free to try Gutenberg with your site before the official launch. Visit Pantheon.io/Gutenberg. Let them know that How I Built, It sent you. Now, back to the show.

Joe: As we’re approaching the end of the show here, I do want to ask about the line that you’re straddling. We mentioned that you wear a lot of hats, and one thing that– The biggest barrier for me personally entering into the plugin product market is the fear of, “I’m just going to get slammed with support requests all the time.” How do you how do you manage that? You do seemingly very high level, and you have some high profile clients here. How do you manage that with managing your Shop Plugins website?

Daniel: Lately I’ve come to grips. Again, a little bit of reflection time. Come to grips with Shop Plugins is a side business. Just straight up revenue, Grow Development is the main focus with time. Dave Ramsey or other money people have talked about, “If you want to know where your priorities are look at your checkbook.” My priority with what’s paying me and what’s supporting our family is Grow Development. Shop Plugins is doing OK. It still makes money every month, and it’s still growing, but it gets a little a small percentage of my time because it is a side business. Having said that, this past couple months I’ve integrated my contractor team of developers into building stuff for Shop Plugins. One of the plugins we just launched was built 90% by one of my contractors. He would write code, and I’d review, we’d have a workflow going. I’d do design, and he would integrate that, and then we launched.

That has been different in that it’s a Shop Plugin plugin, but it’s built by a team, instead of one person. The original question of, how to straddle that, it gets the time it needs. If you launch a plugin and you’re inundated by support requests, that’s a good thing. Because what’s the worst thing that is going to happen? They want a refund. I just gave a refund right before we got on air. It’s not that big of a deal. Get over it. There will be another customer. And if you refund somebody, things don’t work out, and you’re in your– We have a 14-day return policy. We used to have 30 for the longest time, but 14 days is enough time to install it and see if it works for you. I don’t have people usually request after the window. They were inside of the window. They’ve tried it, and it didn’t work. It was our PDF watermark plugin. They were trying to do some type of secure PDF that our plugin couldn’t watermark. I was like, “No problem. You’re on a tight deadline. I don’t have time to look into this today. I’m going to go ahead and refund you. Thanks for being a customer, hope to see you again.” They might come back, and they might not. It’s not that big of a deal. But I’m not going to sink in a lot of time looking into this specific secure PDF format because it’s the only person that has asked me about it. If I get ten more, then that’s a big blinking light that maybe we should fix.

But mostly we don’t get slammed with support requests. Maybe a couple a day. Those are enough to be handled in the Slack time after because I have one client that takes up pretty much all of my daytime hours. Like you were mentioning working eight to ten hours,  they take all of my time. Then after that is when I do project management, code reviews, support requests and that type of stuff. It’s on a lesser, and it’s on a tired brain when some of these support requests get looked at. Some of them I can fix and build in or add a feature to help support them, like supporting the PDF invoices plugin, doing something that’s eventually going to help the plugin sell better if it has a better integration. But those one-off, “Does it work with this?” “No.” “Then I want a refund.” “That’s fine. Go about your day. It’s fine.” But yes, being if you do launch your plugins Joe, and you do get inundated with support requests, that’s a good thing because it means you’ve got a lot of sales. That’s a good place to be.

Joe: That’s awesome. That’s the pull quote for this episode. I love it. Cool. With the last few minutes we have, I do want to ask you two questions. What are your plans for the future? And, do you have any trade secrets for us?

Daniel: Plans for the future, continue serving subscriptions clients for Grow Development. Ship a couple more plugins at Shop Plugins. We have three in the queue that are waiting on me to review and to do the marketing copy for it to get them launched. The trade secret is actually related to that. The trade secret is just freaking launch. Get your stuff out there because there’s two things that are going to happen that you need. One is Google’s going to index it, and that indexing will pay off. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but maybe in 12 months. We saw that with Shop Plugins we would launch a plugin, and we launched in February 2015, and we saw when plugins got indexed. Then we saw a six-month window to when after we launched them that we started getting more organic traffic and sales to that plugin.

It was there. You could see when we put the landing page up and when traffic started flowing because we dialed in the marketing copy or whatever to get sales. That’s not going to happen, that process isn’t going to start until you hit publish, so hit publish. The other thing related to that is you’ll get feedback from people to ask questions on,  “It does that, but does it do this?” And if you start stacking up that customer feedback from people who are actually looking to spend money on your product, then that’s valuable. That’s gold. You can assimilate that into your process, maybe change your features, maybe tweak your marketing copy. Then it doubles down on itself. It compounds on more people looking for the same thing and finding your product, and they’re buying it. So, publish your stuff and get it out there. Start talking about it and having a dialogue, don’t do it in a vacuum.

Joe: That’s great. I have come into some extra time this week, so maybe I will launch my first plugin this week. Awesome. Daniel, thank you so much for your time. Where can people find you?

Daniel: Awesome. You’re welcome, Joe. I’m glad to be here. You can find me online at my website, Daniel.gd and everyone tries to add a dot com or dot something onto it. It’s top-level domain for Grenada, but whatever, it was the shortest Daniel domain I could find. Then most places I’m @growdev,  short for Grow Development. But Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube I’m @growdev.

Joe: Awesome. I will be sure to link all of that in the show notes. Once again Daniel, thank you so much for your time. Awesome advice and thanks for getting a little bit philosophical with me today.

Daniel: Any time, Joe. Thanks for having me.

Outro: Thanks so much to Daniel for joining me today. I appreciate everything that he offered from the [just freaking launched] to the advice that, if you are inundated with support requests, that’s a good thing. It means that people are buying your plugin and that’s rarely a bad thing. Thank you again to Daniel, and thank you to our sponsors Creator Courses and Pantheon. They are both putting out great resources for Gutenberg and the impending WordPress 5.0 launch. My question of the week for you is, why haven’t you launched your plugin yet? Are you thinking about selling a plugin, and what are the stumbling blocks? I have a bunch that I haven’t sold yet. Maybe because of this episode I will, once I have a little bit of downtime to build up the shop or create a simple checkout process.

But anyway, what is keeping you from launching your first premium plugin? Let me know at Joe@HowIBuilt.it or on Twitter @jcasabona. You can also head over to the How I Built It Facebook group and discuss these things with other listeners. You can find that over at HowIBuilt.it/Facebook. If you liked this episode and are enjoying the show, you can go over to Apple podcasts and leave a rating and review. It helps people discover the show, and the show has seen great growth over this last year. I want to see that continued now and into 2019. For all of the show notes you can go to HowIBuilt.it/103. Once again, thank you so much for joining me. Until next time, get out there and build something.