Creating and Selling Royalty-Free Music with Logan Nickleson

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And now on with the show.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It. We are on Season Two of a podcast that asks “How did you build that?” Today, My guest is Logan. I forgot to ask how you pronounce your last name. I’m going to go with Nickleson.

Logan Nickleson: That’s right. Yep.

Joe Casabona: Of Music for Makers. Logan, thanks for joining me.

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. Thanks for asking me to join the podcast. It’s an honor to be here.

Joe Casabona: No problem. That’s, so glad you can make it. I heard about your website Music for Makers on the Matt Report and immediately signed up for your email campaigns and things like that. I plan on, well, hopefully, we are, at this point, we are into Season Two. So I’m going to be using your music for kind of the intros and outros and stuff like that. Because it’s unique, It’s really good and it’s, I’m a big fan. So why don’t we jump right into it? And you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came up with the idea for a Music for Makers.

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. So basically the idea for Music for Makers was born out of my own needs really. So a year to two years ago, I started creating more video content, mostly for client social media work that I was doing. And you know, I learned that basically, it’s really pretty easy to get into making videos now. And even if you have no experience because from a, you know, the basics, you can shoot it with an iPhone and it looks remarkably good considering it came from a phone, whether you’re doing that or you’re doing animations, you know, there’s a ton of free animation software out there. And then there’s a host of other ways you can create a video. But something I, a hurdle I kept encountering in that process when I was creating videos, you know, to create this, you know, final product, basically. And then I would want to add a background track because I just felt like that would add kind of an extra level of polish, you know, make it kind of a little more professional. And I kept finding that, that was constantly a struggle, particularly for commercial projects. Like again, like this was client work that I was doing, so it needed to be from a licensing standpoint, it needed to be okay to use in a commercial setting. And so I kept running into this problem. And really couldn’t find any good solutions that were, you know, fitting for smaller budget projects, like social media videos. And so inspired by, and those kinds of familiar with the tech and webspace, we’ll get this connection. But inspired by sites like Unsplash and there’s a Stock photo, which is basically royalty-free sources of royalty-free photography, I decided to launch kind of the equivalent in the stock marketing. I mean, excuse me, stock music space. And so that’s kind of the Genesis of the idea was just that I was making videos and couldn’t find good background music that was easily accessible and inexpensive. And so I decided to, you know, I felt that other people probably had the same problem. So I decided to launch Music for Makers.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And that’s, I mean, finding royalty-free media in any sense is pretty difficult. Unsplash is relatively new. I’m a big fan of that too. So most of the royalty-free music I’ve been using for this show in the past has been just like whatever loops are in GarageBand. And that’s like, not, you know, it’s not unique. It’s not, it got the job done for Season One. But, you know, I’m excited to start using our, I’m sorry, I’m excited to be using this sort of stuff for Season Two. So, is this your full-time gig? 

Logan Nickleson: It is not. So, full-time by day I am kind of a Web Marketer So I do a lot of content marketing, digital copywriting, that sort of thing. So again, that’s kind of where, honestly, the idea for Music for Makers was born out of work I was doing at the digital agency that I worked for. So that’s what I do by day. And honestly, that has been pretty helpful as I’ve launched Music for Makers and run the business on the side, just because a lot of the, you know, a lot of what I do every day translates well to running an online business.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And so that sounds great. You’re kind of scratching your own itch. I think that’s been a common thread of a lot of guests on this show, at least. And it’s one that I’ve kind of pursued as well. And one of the things that I’ve learned is to talk to people, to do some research. It sounds like your full-time job kind of helps you a little bit and gives you that perspective. But did you do any kind of independent research when launching this or was it like I need this and I’m going to do it.

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. So I think initially, the research, I probably wasn’t even thinking of it as research because I was looking for music to use myself. So in terms of competitor research, I guess that’s kind of what you could call that right there. Just because I was looking to see what are the other options out there. But since launching Music for Makers,  obviously, the research has been a lot more intentional, so still looking a lot at the industry and what other people are doing. Because there are other stock music websites out there. The problem is for most of them, they’re not really, small budget-friendly, I guess I would say. So you can, one song might cost you anywhere from $15 to $150 or more, depending on the quality and a lot of other things. And so, anyway, so now I definitely kind of watch a competition, but I’d say beyond that, just kind of some tricks I guess that I picked up kind of in web marketing is following the conversation online seeing what people are talking about on Twitter or wherever and the struggles that they’re having with background tracks and that sort of thing.

And so just kind of keeping tabs on that conversation. And then also, basically when anybody signs up, so Music for Makers, part of the package, I guess, is that you can sign up for a free track every week. And so it’s the free email subscription. And part of that process when somebody signs up is they get an email kind of introducing Music for Makers a little more thoroughly, and then also introducing myself. And in that email I typically ask, you know, what, why did you sign up for Music for Makers basically? And, you know, a lot of people don’t respond to that. But those who do, I tend to get a lot of good little nuggets from them, just understanding, you know, what they’re struggling with in relation to that ground music and hearing them put that in their own words, which is incredibly valuable.

And then two, how they’re using the music, which is also very interesting to know. Because when I got into it, I figured most people were going to be struggling with background music for videos because that’s what was happening with me personally. But what I found is, and that’s it, that is a huge part of the audience that I serve. But what I found is there’s quite a few podcasters as well, and then kind of some, a smaller number of Game Developers and then random other things like Web Designers, you want to use music in their websites and that sort of thing. But, so that honestly, that final piece of, you know, I guess, I would call that research, but just kind of talking with customers to find out why they signed up. And then, an ongoing kind of checking in with people to see, you know, how they’re enjoying the service whenever I’m planning on launching something new, checking in to see if they think that would be something they’d be interested in. So my customers are definitely a huge part of the research process.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And that, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And the emails, then, why did you sign up email as a nice personal touch, right? That’s how we linked up. I got that. I think you asked, like, what’s your favorite color? And I responded and then got an actual response from you. So, that’s something that you probably won’t find on those big marketplace sites either. You know, they’ve got like a big support team and stuff like that. So that’s really cool. You’re connecting with your customers and I’m sure you’re learning a lot, you know, as a developer, I kind of learned that the thing that I have in mind for the thing I build is close in some regards. But, you know, non-developers think of completely other ways to complete other ways to use what I do. So that’s really cool. 

So we are about 10 minutes in right now. And there’s two parts of, kind of the coup de Gras question that I want to ask because, on the Matt Report, you got into a little bit of how you built the site. And so I do want to touch on that, but I’m really interested in your process for writing music, the tools you use for making the recordings, and things like that. So, we’ll break this down into two questions. The first we can touch on quickly,  which is how did you build the website and the e-commerce piece?

Logan Nickleson: So,  now I’m using, when I first launched, it was really simple. So I’ve been using WordPress from day one, but initially, I was basically using the Genesis framework and had kind of customized it very slightly. And it was essentially just a landing page, again, kind of, you know, just a minimum viable product version to see if people even signed up for this thing. So it is basically, you know, just an email field for people to sign up and then a few tracks to kind of give people an example of what they would receive.

And so that was all it was for several months. Actually, initially when I launched it back in September of 2015 and I think I was just using like SoundCloud to give the tracks to people. But earlier, I guess this is going to air probably in 2017. But early 2016 is when I transitioned over to Easy Digital Downloads, which is a plugin you know, for, digital, basically a digital marketplace for digital products.

And so when that happened, basically that was a full site redesign because I, you know, ended up getting a theme that was compatible with Easy Digital Downloads and specifically one that worked really well and played well with, you know, playing audio files and that sort of thing. So, that’s basically the core of the site that runs on WordPress and Easy Digital Downloads.

And then the way Music for Makers works from a kind of pricing plan standpoint is, there is an addition to the free weekly email or the free track a week. There is like a cart or standard pricing so you can just buy one track. But that’s typically not the most cost-effective way to go about it, but you can do that if you want. Or there is a pro, which is an annual subscription and you get unlimited access to all the tracks and the Music for Maker’s library. And that is actually run on restrict content pro, which is made by the same developers who made Easy Digital Downloads. So those work well together. 

And then there’s actually, as of, well, I guess it’ll be November 2016. I actually just introduced a third pricing option for people who don’t want to go the annual route, etcetera. And it’s a monthly option so you have, you know, a certain number of download credits every month and you pay monthly. So that’s also through  Restrict Content Pro. And then, you know, connect it to Easy Digital Downloads.

So that’s basically, without those core components, the site wouldn’t exist as it does now. There’s obviously, you know, a range of other things I’m using to run the site. And then MailChimp is pretty core to what I do as well, just because I have that weekly email going out. So, but yeah, that’s pretty much it. WordPress, Easy Digital Downloads and Restrict Content Pro is kind of my, you know, the most important tools in my toolkit.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And, so you haven’t touched any code for this project, is that right?

Logan Nickleson: But not exactly. So I can handle HTML and CSS and then anything beyond that, it gets a little, you know, I can get in over my head pretty quickly, which is why tools like WordPress and Easy Digital Downloads, you know, are great because they make it possible for people like me to run a business by myself.

But yeah, there has, you know, I have been, you know, I can Google and look up code that I can then tweak. So that there have been cases where I’ve done that just to kind of adapt things to my needs a little more. But yeah, I mean, you know, I started with a theme and put a child theme on top of it. But, you know, a lot of infrastructures was already there. So yeah, I would say for, you know, in terms of what I do for Music for Makers, it’s probably 10% or less is actually getting into the code.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. Cool. Very cool. That’s awesome. So you’ve got basically a full e-commerce and subscription site with 10% or less code, right? So, it’s mostly stylistic tweaks. So, you know, that’s a big lesson, I think for anybody listening is that you don’t need to code to get, definitely not a minimum viable product or even, you know, full, you know, full-on business. So with that, I would love to hear your process for A how you make music and B kind of the recording process, right? Cause that’s something that I’m relatively new to at this point. You know, I’m using Camtasia to record this. I’ve got a pretty decent USB microphone that I’d like to upgrade. So I’d love to hear just a bit about that process cause that’s, you know, you’re a pro at that.

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. It’s a pretty simple process, really. In terms of the specifics of gear there, I use Reaper, which is an open-source doll or digital audio recording workstation and I got started.  So I’ve been recording since I was about 15 but I got started with actual analog recording gear. But when I made the transition to Digital, I was using pro tools, which is kind of in the audio recording space is kind of considered the program to use. I mean, that’s what a lot of professional studios use. But about, I don’t know, two, three years ago is when I started making the transition to Reaper and that’s what I use now. And it’s really fantastic and really affordable if you’re wanting to get in. And they actually have a free license that you can use for a while. And then, you know, upgrade later if you want. But that’s what I used to do, what’s called, you know, multi-track recording. So basically since it is on me, I go in and record one track and then add more layers so you end up with this complete song, but it’s just one person. So it’s basically how any song today is made. 

But, yeah. So that’s all done through, what’s called a [Inaudible 16:31.35] oh sorry a Digital Audio Workstation, or a DAW. So that’s what I use. And then I also have an audio interface that allows me to, you know, plug in a guitar or a piano or Mics or whatever, to then go into the workstation and record those tracks. 

So, and then, of course, the other ingredients would just be all the different instruments that I’m using. So that’s from a kind of a gear standpoint, how it works. 

And then the process for actually creating the songs, one thing I found pretty early into the process of running Music for Makers is, you know, you can’t really wait for inspiration to hit you, you know, and which is, that was actually kind of a, you know, light bulb moments sort of, I guess. Because having been making music for most of my life and then actually recording and putting out records since, you know, pretty young, typically in that process, you know, and that was kind of a more artistic thing. It wasn’t for any real business, you know, it was kind of a hobby I did on the side. And so for that, while I might sit down and kind of try to work out a song, sometimes typically I would just kind of wait until I felt inspired. And then I would, you know, start putting something together. A lot of times it started with the lyrics and then the song would build around it.

But since Music for Makers, since I could create a new song every week that I don’t really have the luxury of waiting for that to happen, you know? So what I’ve learned again pretty early on is that basically, creativity can be forced and, you know, creative productivity is a thing that you can really optimize. So, all that to say, basically, I’ve worked out a pretty standard routine that doesn’t really vary too much week to week unless I’m going to be traveling or something.

So typically, what an average week looks like is on Monday is when I’ll typically start the actual writing process. And sometimes, you know, so I’m always looking for inspiration, you know, whether it’s, whatever I’m watching on Netflix, you know, listening to the score in that and getting inspired or whatever. But I’m always looking for inspiration and kind of ideas for getting started. But a lot of weeks still start out kind of blank slate. I don’t know where it’s going to go. And then usually it starts with me either picking up a guitar or, kind of playing around on the piano, and working until I find a melody that, you know, I feel good about. And so that’s typically Mondays are typically spent doing that kind of just jamming around, trying to find something. And then maybe laying down that initial melody. But again, that’s the more creative process I would say is Monday.

Tuesdays are usually when I kind of start fleshing out the song. So that’s when the multi-track recording aspect comes in. So if I started with a guitar melody, then I might add piano or more guitar bass or drums, or, you know, whatever the song may call for. But that’s usually the second day is usually when I really start building out the song.

Then a Wednesday and Thursday are typically a, I might add a few more tracks, but typically it’s mostly mixing and you know, tweaking things to get the overall song kind of balanced out basically. 

And then Friday is kind of spent mastering typically and getting the final product ready. So that’s kind of a brief overview. Obviously, there are, you know, some weeks go differently than others. And sometimes that process takes a lot longer than it does other times. So it varies, but that’s generally how it works.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And how long does it take you for each song?

Logan Nickleson: That varies just depending on, you know, the song complexity and just how well the studio work is going.  It’s like anything else, you know, sometimes you just feel like you’re hitting your head against a wall over and over again. And it really works to get it out. Other times, It’s like, you know, this flash of inspiration does hit you, and then you’re able to get it, you know, there’s been weeks where I finished a song on like a Tuesday after starting it on a Monday. And it’s just because, you know, you kind of get into the flow and it comes easily. But then there’s other weeks where it’s, I’m still working on Saturday to put the finishing touches on this song. So I would say anywhere from typically anywhere from five to 10 hours, just depending on the complexity of the song. And that would be from, you know, actually starting it,  like writing it and then through the recording process.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. So I’ve got a kind of a two-fold question for you. This is, this is one that’s been a personal headache of mine. And that is, I live in an apartment with fairly thin walls next to a window.  So I get a lot of outside noise. What do you do to kind of get rid of that? You know, I can see the room you’re in. It’s not like you’re in like this padded studio or anything. So, you know, is there something special that you do to kind of get rid of all the kind of ambient noises around you when you’re recording? 

Logan Nickleson: So there’s, when it comes to sound treatment, there’s kind of two things. One is you want to keep the sound out, which is kind of what you’re talking about especially in an apartment. I lived in an apartment for a little, little while, while I was in college. And that was, I didn’t get a lot of recording done. I’ll say that many noisy neighbors. So there’s, you want to keep the sound out, but then the other thing is you actually want to treat the room so it sounds good. 

So yeah, you probably can’t see behind me, there’s not really much, but on the walls, actually do have a lot of acoustic foam. And what that does is, most rooms are not naturally going to sound great for a recording. So acoustic foam, what it does is it takes a lot of the thin echo that you have naturally in a room. And it treats that so that it sounds warmer and a little bit better. So because especially in audio recording, a little natural reverb is nice, but for most of the time you want it to be pretty clean and dry so that you can then, you know, everything plays nicer together.

So, yeah, that’s kind of the biggest thing I would say is acoustic treatment. And there’s, I mean, you can Google that and there’s a lot of DIY ways you can go about it, or you could just buy acoustic foam. But that’s probably the, especially if you’re in kind of a rental situation, the acoustic foams about the best way to go. If you’re, you know, on the other end of the spectra you can, of course, like build a studio that is all, padded and everything. And which maybe I’ll do one day, but right now I’m just using yeah, just like acoustic foam and, you know, just treating the room ambiance, basically. 

Joe Casabona: Awesome. That’s really interesting. That’s really great information especially if anybody wants to start recording, whether it be a podcast or video series or music or anything like that.

And then the other kind of, part of this process question is what musical artists do you get inspiration from? You know, you mentioned like Netflix, but would you say that there’s a, like a few artists that you kind of pull from or draw from?

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. So typically, basically I didn’t, I don’t, I wouldn’t say I paid a ton of attention to, you know, soundtracks and background music before I started Music for Makers kind of ironically. So I would say most of my inspiration or,  you know, the artists I look to are just artists that I enjoy listening to on a regular basis. So they’re not really making music to go in videos or podcasts or anything like that. But,   man, honestly, the group of artists is kind of all over the place. So let me, I’m going to pull up Spotify just to kind of see what I’ve been listening to lately cause it changes a lot too. And Spotify is great because you can kind of dive into, so, I mean, sometimes I’ll spend, you know, a week listening to a new video game composer, music composer, you know, and just kind of getting into seeing what other people who do that for a living are doing. Because again, I tend to approach it kind of the way that I’ve always approached making music, which in a way I think is what makes Music for Makers’ tracks a little bit different. You know, you mentioned at the beginning that its unique tracks are kind of compared to what’s out there. And I think that’s because you have so many people getting into stock music or music licensing for the sole reason of making music that people are going to put in stuff. And it tends to kind of have the same, you know, like ukuleles. And you know, really cheerful which is that works for some things, but other things, it gets kind of stale and it feels thin.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. It’s like, you know, it’s like how every template theme chorus looks exactly the same to me, at least. So…

Logan Nickleson: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that really corporate sound, you know. So, really I’ve never necessarily, I honestly, actually starting out Music for Makers was kind of a revolution against that sound because I wanted it to sound real. And you know, again, I’ve been making music kind of as an independent artist for a while. And so It would take, I think it would take more effort to try to make music that sounds like that versus just making music the way I’ve always made it. So, anyway, looking through Spotify in terms of creating stuff, you know, for Music for Makers, the album Leaf has been a big influence and they actually have a lot of instrumental stuff.

So a lot of times I’ll listen to them.  Dosh is another artist I listen to that does a lot of instrumentals because it’s interesting. Before Music for Makers,  all the music I made was not instrumental. It was all, you know, I had vocals and lyrics. And so that’s kind of been an interesting change. And so it’s always good to listen to artists that are doing that even, you know, when they’re not making it for video, you know, and they’re not making stock music. They’re making music to listen to, but it’s instrumental. So it’s good to listen to that just to hear how they arrange it and keep it interesting and incoherent and everything. I’ll get out. Andrew Bird, Ball Noir, it’s another great, great band that’s instrumental as well. Blind Pilot, Iron, and Wine was, could go on and on, but basically…sorry, go ahead.

Joe Casabona: Oh, I was just going to say, I’m really just looking for new instrumental music to listen to you.

Logan Nickleson: Oh, yeah. So, well there are several good examples. But yeah, it’s basically there’s quite a variety of artists and you know, that I draw inspiration from and which I, you know, probably shows a little bit. And the Music for Makers’ library, it’s pretty diverse,  I mean, I’m creating all the music, but, and some people are usually surprised by that. And that’s been one thing that’s fun about Music for Makers is,  you know, when you are creating music as an artist, you know, you build a fanbase on a particular sound. And while your fans will tolerate, you know, you kind of evolve from record to record. For example, if you just, if one record had, you know, 12 different sounds on each of the different tracks or whatever,  you know, is a totally different vibe then it’d be harder to build that audience because they’re expecting a certain sound, you know, so. But Music for Makers isn’t like that. I mean, and for Music for Makers, it’s actually the opposite where its variety is a good thing. Cause you know, you might need, you might have a project that kind of needs a more somber chill track, or you might have one that needs a lot more energy and, you know,  is uplifting and that sort of thing. And so it’s been fun to kind of play around with Genre mood,  and the instruments and everything,  throughout the process.

Joe Casabona: That, yeah, that’s awesome. I absolutely love that. And that’s very, very exciting.

So we are, we’re banging up against time here. And so we’ve talked a little bit about the transformations, during the last part, but do you have any plans, you know, do you have any set plans for the future?

Logan Nickleson: So honestly, one of the bigger things that I have been planning just recently launched and that was the Music for Makers plus the monthly subscription. So from here, it’s kind of a lot just about growth, really. So the plans for the future, ultimately for Music for Makers, would be that it could grow to the point that it can be providing an independent income that’s, you know, decent enough that I can focus on that full-time and continue developing it and growing it. So that’s kind of a long-term goal. 

And the short term, it’s really just about growth. So it’s, you know, looking for opportunities like getting on podcasts or partnering with different companies, where it makes sense to just kind of get Music for Makers out in front of more people. But really, I mean, the project has gone through several iterations since launching. And you know, I would say most weeks, there’s something I’m tweaking about it. Whether, you know, sometimes it’s big, like the plus subscription. Sometimes it’s not really that noticeable to customers necessarily, but you know, there’s always things that I’m working on. So we’ll see. But yeah, in one word, the plan for the future is growth.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And, I always like to end with this question. Do you have any trade secrets for us?

Logan Nickleson: Lots of coffee would probably be the go-to, especially if you’re starting kind of a side project that you want to turn into a business. But now more seriously, what I found with Music for Makers and I kind of touched on this early on is that, and I think it’s relevant for any project whether it’s kind of a creative project or you know. I mean, it could be anything from writing a blog post to coding a WordPress plugin or anything.

But, I think the secrets are really getting anything done. Or if you have this goal or anything you want to accomplish is really just getting started. Procrastination is, you know, something we all deal with. And,  it can, it can kill an idea really quickly. And, you know, I mean, it’s a pretty simple thing. If you don’t get started, the project will never happen of course. But that’s proved to be true really on a weekly basis for me. Because there’s most weeks, again, I don’t really necessarily feel inspired to get started. But, you know, I pick up the guitar and play around a little bit, and then by the end of the week, there’s a track. 

So that’s just, I don’t know if that really counts as a trade secret, but that’s something that’s a truth that has been kind of, you know, etched in stone since you know, starting Music for Makers. So I think it’s something we all need to hear just to, you know, have the encouragement to get started regardless of how overwhelming or big the project feels or, how out of reach. Because before starting music, Music for Makers I was, you know, for a long time, I’d been wanting to start something of my own on the side. And, I mean, like for years, while doing, you know, having my full-time gig and, you know, would start down the road of trying to build something and then would ultimately just kind of forget about it or move on or whatever. And Music for Makers is kind of what has stuck and I really think it is just kind of about getting started and then seeing where it goes.

Joe Casabona: Nice. Yeah. I mean, that is great advice. You know, it might sound obvious, right? Like just do it. But it’s harder than it sounds. Because I have a notebook full of ideas that I have started or haven’t even started. It’s just like, this would be cool, but, you know, actually doing it and sticking through it is, you know, that’s what makes it successful. You know, I think another common theme has always been, you know, we see the finished product, the successful thing, but we don’t see all the work that went into it behind the scenes.

Logan Nickleson: Yeah, definitely.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Awesome. Well, Logan, thank you so much for joining me. Everybody definitely go out there and check out Music for Makers.com. It’s a great site.

Logan Nickleson: Cool.

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Thanks so much for listening, and thanks to our great guests and fantastic sponsors. If you liked the show, please rate it and subscribe on iTunes in Google Play or whatever your podcast app choices. If you have any questions, be sure to reach out at streamlined.fm.

And finally, until next week, get out there and build something.