Making Mailchimp and WordPress Easier with Tracy Levesque

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Hey, everybody. I wanna welcome you to Season Three of How I Built It. I’m so excited to kick off this season, it’s going to be bigger and better than ever. I’ve got a lot of great guests lined up including today’s Tracy Levesque. I’ve also got a couple of live shows planned for later in the summer and the fall including one at WordCamp US. So I want to thank everybody as we kicked off Season Three, all the guests, all the sponsors, and of course you the listeners who have made this show possible. We’re coming on a year and again I am blown away by the amazing support. If you want to help me grow How I Built It, I have started a Patreon campaign. So, for as little as a dollar a month and up to $10 a month, you can help me create even better content. Head over to builtpodcast.net/pledge today. I’m looking for 20 Patreon sponsors or Patreon pledges to really get the ball rolling. And as an added bonus, the first twenty people will get a free T-shirt for pledging at the $10 level. And I will also reach out to you personally to see what kind of content you want to see on the show and on the Patreon page. So again, that’s builtpodcast.net/pledge. Thanks so much. And on with the show.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks “How did you build that?” Today, my guest is local to my area, good friend, WordCamp US Philly edition organizer, Tracy Levesque. Tracy, how are you doing today?

Tracy Levesque: Good, I’m good.

Joe Casabona: Cool. I didn’t have like something prepared for your intro so that was just like all at the top of my head. Hope that was okay.

Tracy Levesque: Yeah. It’s fine.

Joe Casabona: I have Philly on the brain today ’cause I just taught my coworkers what the word ‘Jaune’ means ’cause they had no idea so they were very surprised to hear that, but…

Tracy Levesque: The hardest thing to teach people is to try to explain to people what a ‘mummer’ is.

Joe Casabona: I see. I don’t know that one ’cause I am not like a Philly area native. I’m from New York so can you explain that one to us?

Tracy Levesque: Oh man! You put me on the spot.

Joe Casabona: Sorry.

Tracy Levesque: This isn’t the, what is a mummer podcast? Oh gosh! Mummers are like on New Year’s morning in Philly there’s a big parade of mostly men who dress up in drag kind of like clown drag and then march really, really drunk down the street, and there are levels to it. There’s like the fancy brigades and they take it very seriously. The news choreographed routines of music down to just like drunk obnoxious, they call it the clamics. They just, and it’s in my house is right around the corner from the mummer’s museum so they all just like come through our neighborhood.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha, cool. It sounds almost like the Santa Claus parade in New York City that is to use at a young person’s term gets pretty turned like this.

Tracy Levesque: String bands and there’s lots of banjos.

Joe Casabona: Nice, that’s excellent. So well there we go, so we just learned some new Philly culture today too, so…

Tracy Levesque: At least playing the mummers

Joe Casabona: Awesome. So if you guys ever wanna use mummers you can use that ‘jaune’ now that Tracy has explained it to us. So, coo, we are actually talking about your plugin Easy Forms for Mailchimp which is done by your company, right? Yikes, Inc.

Tracy Levesque: Yup.

Joe Casabona: Cool, so why don’t you tell us a lot more I guess about who you are, what you do, and how you came up with the idea?

Tracy Levesque: Well me, Tracy Levesque co-own Yikes, Inc. We’re a web design development company in the lovely Fishtown neighborhood of Philadelphia. I own the company with my wife and we’ve owned it now for, gosh over 21 years. Crazy right? It’s a long time and we do mostly agency work, we’ve done that since the beginning. But it’s been over a year that we’ve gotten into the product market and making plugins and we sell add-ons for our plugins. So our main plugin is Easy Forms for MailChimp and simply put it allows you to connect to your MailChimp account during the API and then place a MailChimp form in a post or page or widget.

Joe Casabona: That’s awesome. So that’s great because I always wonder like what the big differences are between like agency and product work? I’ve done agency work basically my whole life, I have a couple of open-source plugins but I’m not really in the product space like, can you, what have you noticed is the biggest difference between the two?

Tracy Levesque: I think product work is very satisfying in the short term, you know, you get like pings on my Apple Watch so we sold another plugin and it’s like I guess your little dopamine like, you know, injection and you know, reviews and people really appreciate what you do. Like when people post five-star reviews and they’re like “This saved me”, saved me like “This did exactly what I wanted.” It feels so good and it’s, and we have lots of users now, we have over 50,000 users. So to see something grow like that and to have this, I don’t know, fan base I guess not only just users but fans of the plugins, people who and the goodness of their heart will translate our hundreds of strings into another language just because they love the plugin. That stuff is great and it makes it fun like I didn’t think it was gonna be this fun. I was scared, you know, a lot of people asked me “Oh are you gonna get into products and I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know the support” and people are so abusive and I don’t know. But it’s really turned out to be way more fun and rewarding than I anticipated. The downside is that it doesn’t make a lot of money as opposed to agency work, you know, in one job we can make twice the amount of money. It takes a year off like selling add-ons and the support is tough but we try to be as nice as possible, as responsive as possible, and people respond well. There’s always gonna be the person who’s just downright mean no matter what you do, and you just have to diverse emotions, emotionally divest from those folks and some people are never going to be happy. But there are fewer you know, than the people who appreciate what you do. So that’s the difference between the two.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s great and that makes me feel good so far, you know, ’cause the support, the support and the abuser things that I, you know, I worry about and I’ve got my hands in a million pots but I don’t know if that’s the right colloquialism but

Tracy Levesque: [Inaudible 08:42.3]

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah, something like that, you know, but that’s really cool to hear. So way back in the first episode of the show, Jason Coleman of Paid Memberships Pro talks about how his trade secret. I won’t give it away ’cause I want people to listen but his trade secret has to do with, you know, kind of how to deal emotionally with the amount of feedback. Maybe abusive feedback that you get so it’s, that was like really good and serious advice for the first episode

Tracy Levesque: It’s tough ‘because you can get like five, you know all these five-star reviews with people being so kind or even just support tickets or people are very understanding like thank you for making this plugin, I’m having this and you help them and it’s great. And then you get that one mean person out of 50 and it just makes you feel like crap, you know, even though you, ’cause you try to do your best and you just have to brush it off, you can’t internalize that stuff.

Joe Casabona: yeah, it was like that episode of How I Met your mother, I don’t know if you have ever watched that.

Tracy Levesque: I am a huge ‘How I Met your Mother’ fan. Like I think about everything in life but I probably say there was this one episode of time that your mother like a couple of times a month ‘Cause everything in life can be traced back down to How I Met Your Mother episode.

Joe Casabona: Yes, so you know the episode I think probably that I’m gonna mention. It’s the one where Ted reads his students’ reviews and they’re all incredible except for one and it completely ruins his day. So that’s fantastic, cool. So do you do agency work primarily? You’ve gotten into the product space, this is a great plugin because lots of people use MailChimp, lots of people use WordPress. What kind of research did you do if any kind of before or during the development of this plugin?

Tracy Levesque: We have about 7 plugins in the WordPress directory and each one of them came out of client need. So a client needed something and then we built it, then we said “Hey, let’s turn this into a plugin with the, in the case MailChimp, this is our first plugin. We released it years and years ago. I can’t remember exactly when, maybe 2011, and at the time we had a client who needed a MailChimp form on a page and at the time all of the plugins that existed were widgets. And we didn’t need a widget, we needed a shortcode so we created this little plugin that allows you to use a shortcode to pop it into a page or post, and then we released it. And then it got neglected for a few years when we released it. We’re keeping up with that, people were using it and then we just got really busy with everything else we were doing. And then we hired somebody, Evan who no longer works for us now but he was, but he’s just a big plugin fan, fan of plugins, a fan of WordPress and he just picked it up and nourished it and really gave it new life. And at that time we did a complete rewrite of the whole thing and made it a lot better. So that’s the history of the plugin. 

To research it, it came from the client’s need. We didn’t think that much of it and now everything moving forward has come from feedback ’cause we can do all the research in the world, like for iterations of a plugin we have like a checklist in Trello, and I draw up like a whole bunch of like ideas. And you know, this is what I think would be really good features, really good add-ons. And then you’ll have no customers ask for those features ever like “Wow! that wasn’t a good idea.” You know, so everything we do is driven by what our customers are asking for. If you have ten people asking for the same thing then you build it. And one thing that’s amazing about this plugin is I did not realize the use cases that people come up with for MailChimp. I have no idea at all, people really rely on it as a CRM more than just a way to mass email people. I had no idea this is happening like there are a lot of use cases for people who want folks builds to subscribe to the same list more than once and not to re-subscribe but to update their profiles ’cause they rely heavily on their profile information to determine what to send them. So that’s something I could not have said with any research and figured out on our own. So it’s really feedback from customers that drives what we build, what we fix, and add-ons that we create.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s awesome. Also, I had no, I use Mailchimp basically as a way to mass email people 

Tracy Levesque: Exactly.

Joe Casabona: And I’ve been like shopping around for CRM so now I’m gonna have to look at that.

Tracy Levesque: I don’t think it’s necessary that what it’s meant to be used for but people use it like that.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, totally. And I’m about to try anything that would make a good blog post, I’m like I’m going to try it out. Cool, so I actually want to ask you one more question that’s unlisted in the questions I sent you.

Tracy Levesque: Not part of your six.

Joe Casabona: Not part of my six, yeah. Well, it’s because this is also something that I struggle with, right? Like I work on a plugin for myself and I’m like “Hey, I bet people in the repo might find this helpful” but then I get the fear, I get the, one of my code’s not good enough fear. So how did you get over that? How much refactoring did you do before pushing it to the repo?

Tracy Levesque: I mean it’s been so long, it’s been on there for so many years. I just say just ship it, really. Just ship it because the world will tell you if there’s something wrong with your code and they won’t be mean about it necessarily. I mean, I know we all have a lot of repository syndrome, we all have a lot of fear of being critiqued. I hate looking at my own code from a year ago you know, but just ship it ’cause you’re, we’re all educated folks. We all know the code right way to do things, the WordPress way to do things. Our codes are not gonna completely suck, you know, and if you get the feedback from the world about how it can be better then that’s great, you make it better.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, you learn something, yeah.

Tracy Levesque: Right. You learn you know folks out there most of the time are pretty kind about it.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha, cool. That’s awesome. So just ship it like maybe words that everybody could live by forever, I love that, awesome. So one of the reasons I started this show is because I was asking people for advice and I thought “Hey, other people could probably benefit from this advice.” So you know I know that you started the company with your wife 21 years ago which by the way is shocking to me for like a lot of reasons. I don’t see businesses in our space that long but also like I didn’t, I hope this is not a lot you don’t look like…

Tracy Levesque: You didn’t know how super old I was, right? That’s what you’re about to say.

Joe Casabona: You don’t look old enough to have a business for 21 years.

Tracy Levesque: No, I’m 46. I’m part of the WordPress 1970 you know, classroom generation. Me, Chris Lema, who else, Shawn.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, Shawn Hesketh.

Tracy Levesque: Hesketh, Andrea Rennick around 1970.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s wild. That’s, so I will attribute that to the way you take care of yourself and not my shocking inability to figure out age.

Tracy Levesque: It’s like half Asian superpower to look young is 

Joe Casabona: It is. That is…I’m really glad you said that ‘because I have not mentioned that to my other half Asian friend before. Anyway, we’re like going off the rails. So who do you talk to about like business advice, are you part of a mastermind or anything like that?

Tracy Levesque: I locally I mean we’re in different business organizations run in the IBA which is an independent business alliance which the LGBT chamber was also really into sustainable business so we’re certified B Corporation. And if anyone is not familiar with what that is, it’s if they were familiar with LEED certification which is like a certification system to determine that a building is indeed built green and sustainable, B certification is like that but for businesses. So it’s a really rigorous certification system to determine that yes in fact you are running a sustainable business. 

And we’re also in a sustainable Business Network in Philadelphia. So these are all the local organizations that we’re a part of and you know, get advice from. I’m in, right now I’m in this program CEO access program. It’s part of the Chamber of Commerce where they pair up small businesses with big CEOs of huge businesses. So my corporate partner right now is the CEO of First Trust Bank and his name is Tim Abell. He’s super nice, we’ve met a couple of times and he’s going to come to our office at the end of the month so that’s been really great. And also the other folks and pairings in the group, we all get together for like breakfast, and talk, and stuff, and so that’s really cool. The coolest part was when I went to the First Trust holiday party. It was at the link, it was nuts, it was like, they had like an ice and ice sculpture with the roguelike seafood all over it. And then Eagle, Eagles players signing autographs that were really neat. But so and I learn a lot from them. And then I had, OK, I gotta give a shout out to Chris Lema ’cause he’s helped a lot. He’s so generous and has really great advice. And we went to CaboPress this year, just got it. That was an amazing experience. It was relaxing but not just relaxing and beautiful and amazing but just the access to everybody and everybody willing to share advice was great.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. So I, well that’s fantastic. Chris is a good friend and a friend of the show, he’s been on the show and by the time this show comes out, I will have applied to go for 2017 and will probably know by then. So I’m just gonna leave a break here. Yey, I’m also going this year. 

Tracy Levesque: Yeah, we’re going in. I’m the official photographer.

Joe Casabona: Nice, awesome.

Tracy Levesque: Yes, just ’cause I just brought my camera with me and took a lot of pictures and tried to make myself the official photographer ’cause I love taking pictures and it’s just such a beautiful space.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, I just, I mean I see the pictures and I know like Shawn takes a bunch too. So it will be nice for him to be in some photos ’cause he’s usually always behind the camera, so that’s awesome. Oh yeah, I talked to my, at the time of this recording my wife is two weeks and five days away from giving birth, so yes. So…

Tracy Levesque: I know how she feels, I know how that feels, I have a daughter.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, it’s like, so we’re like coming up on it and I said I won’t travel for like the first six months of our daughter’s life. But if I have enough business money in the bank, I would love to go to Cabo this year. So the link to that is in the show notes. I’ve heard nothing but good things about that conference like absolutely.

Tracy Levesque: Right, it’s amazing. And congratulations.

Joe Casabona: Thank you very much! We’re really excited. Our daughter’s going to be like a super nerd like she already has a Yoda doll cause I put it on our baby registry.

Tracy Levesque: You know it was funny like you know, our kid is to geek, parent and she’s not a geek.

Joe Casabona: Really.

Tracy Levesque: Yeah, she, I mean she was raised weird really not even talking about plugins or anything right or how anything is made right now. But she was raised enough and the first three years of her life she grew up in the office. She, you know, would pretend to have client meetings and stuff and was surrounded by computers. And now she likes theater, she likes musicals, she really loves to draw, she’s not drawn to keystone to computer stuff at all.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. How old is she?

Tracy Levesque: Ten

Joe Casabona: Ten, ah there’s still time. I didn’t get into computers until. I was into theater and drawing at ten and stuff like that. So we’re definitely not talking about but you know, like me, being parents and business owners is also…

Tracy Levesque: Yeah, work-life balance.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, totally. So actually let’s get into the title question, right? How did you build this plugin? And you can talk about like fun snippets of code or your methods or software or you know whatever you think is relevant here.

Tracy Levesque: The number one tool that we relied most heavily on is GitHub. The plugins in GitHub, people submit support tickets in GitHub and. Right now I’m trying to push everybody towards the WordPress forms for support and keeping GitHub for development. But whenever there’s something we wanna fix, we make a ticket for it at GitHub and we use all the milestones, we use all the labels, to [Inaudible 22:00.5] together what the next release is gonna look like. And then we all push to a staging branch and test, test, test that staging branch until. And then finally went it like the day of release we push out an update. We’ll then merge staging to master and then. But then, you know, and then take that release in SVN to the directory. 

Joe Casabona: Yeah, so…

Tracy Levesque: That is for our most relied-on tool. And then within that, we use Grunt to automate a lot of minification of JS, CSS. I do a lot of, I said the workflow is if there’s any new feature that has that UI component the developers will put that together and I’ll refine it. I’ll go through it and I’ll tweak the DUI7 mostly as a front-end developer. So I’ll go through,  I’ll test the crap out of anything new and then I’ll make it look pretty. 

Joe Casabona: Awesome. So do you have any fun tips or tricks for keeping GitHub and sync with SVN?

Tracy Levesque: No,

Joe Casabona: OK.

Tracy Levesque: No, Jeremy Pry wrote the whole blog post on it. He’s a local.

Joe Casabona: Oh that’s right. I met him before.

Tracy Levesque: And he did a little bit of freelance work for us on contract work last summer, this past summer and he’s really fun to work with. Actually came to the East, he’s a remote worker and he actually came to the office and it was fun.

Joe Casabona: Oh wow!

Tracy Levesque: Yeah. And he does have workflows for doing all that but it wasn’t enough time to implement that so unfortunately no.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha gotcha, cool. I’ll link to his blog post on the show notes cause that’s like not really something that I thought about. I’ll just have like both links to the repo in the folder but that breaks other things. Or it might have not done it right, so if somebody’s listening to this and they know how way to do that, let me know. Then the other part…

Tracy Levesque: that part to pain, that part, that really big pain. You do everything, GitHub and then you have to manually do all that in SVN and then filter structures, little different that you don’t want to move files, you don’t want to move over, and yeah it’s gross. But…

Joe Casabona: Gotta be done.

Tracy Levesque: Sometimes it’s gotta be done.

Joe Casabona: So cool. Do you use any like GUI for SVN? Or do you do everything like command-line style?

Tracy Levesque: I use Tortoise, get TortoiseSVN personally. But I think probably other folks here use the command line or Gitbox for mac.

Joe Casabona: Nice. I use Sprout I think, for SVN. I think that’s what it’s called but I might need a stock correction later. Shows show up so I use it, cool. and then my other follow-up question was can you take us through testing a little bit? Do you have any automated testing tools? Or is it like really it needs to be a manual thing?

Tracy Levesque: We have PHP unit testing. This is like a kind of out of my,  you know, the world of expertise. But so you know and GitHub talks to our Slack instance so we have a plugins channel and GitHub, you know, posts stuff to that. And so if it passes unit testing it says like ‘thumbs up” it passed, yeah, or fail, though you know, tell us but just said testing. The staging branch of our plugin, anyone contesting time when we did that huge update when we completely rewrote the plugin we have really kind folks out there that tested for us and gave us feedbacks out there on the Internet. That’s when we only had like 20,000 users so in, you know, since plug-in rewrite we’ve over doubled our active users which is really cool.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s fantastic. So that PHP unit is something that again does all these things, right? You’re a front-end developer, you know all these things. I will try all of these things and then by the time this comes out all of the things that we are talking about and want to try will be old and there will be new things that we wanna try. So awesome. So I think you touched on this a little bit but maybe we can kind of make this a two for one question, right? What transformations have the plugin gone through? And what’s on the road map for the future?

Tracy Levesque: Huge transformations. Well, number one, there was that huge update and really the plugin now does not resemble the plugin that we released back in 2011. Then transformation number two was when MailChimp API went from version two to version three and they stopped support for version two at the end of 2016. So that was our biggest, probably biggest commit, biggest update since this newer version of the plugin and that was huge. It took a team of like many people to get that up to version three and there are still a couple of loose ends that are not supported in three and they say that they’re going to not cut the version two endpoints off under just not going to support it.  So we have a few like maybe two items that are still on version two but they’re so, we’re either gonna have to hopefully I’m gonna nag them and hopefully though reproduces in three ’cause they said they were gonna you know, support everything in three that they did in two but or we’ll just have to get rid of those features. But there are things like related to profiles that people really rely on so I hope they emerge from this over.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, well we were just talking about that earlier in the show, right? Like there are who rely upon, you mentioned a specific case for that. So yeah, fingers crossed.

Tracy Levesque: Yeah. And so these are the two biggest things. And also going from just a completely free plugin to a freemium model plugin where you can buy add-ons for it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah. What was that like specifically ‘cause I know there’s like volumes on? What’s the right pricing model for a plugin? Is it just premium of that, isn’t premium? So what was that like the decision-making process and the actual implementation process?

Tracy Levesque: Well, we had to completely redo the plugin to be able to support add-ons of any kind. We have some free add-ons as well. Then since we already had this established plugin that’s been in the directory for years we didn’t want to suddenly just make it like Gravity Forms in premium normally.

Joe Casabona: Right, right.

Tracy Levesque: So we went for the add-on model and we also have a developer license, we call them unlimited license where I think it’s $150 a year. You can use as many of the add-ons as on as many sites as you like. So we have that as well and I don’t know and it seems to me from my, I’ve talked to a lot of people who sell plugins at this point, it seems to me that the free pro, free, and Pro is the one that people profit most off of.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. So you hook people on with the free and they’re like “Oh, it would be cool if it did this.”

Tracy Levesque: Yeah, and so you just, free and pro has done like no add-ons, no paid add-ons but I don’t know. So where we have another plugin that was, that’s in the works and I think for that one we’re going to do free and pro.

Joe Casabona: OK, cool. Well if it’s out by the time this drops I will include that in the show notes as well. Cool, very cool. So the future of…

Tracy Levesque: The future of the Mailchimp plugin now with version three of the API, you can control a lot more of your MailChimp account. So there are certain times when you gotta leave the WordPress dashboard, go back over to your MailChimp account like adding fields, it used to be to change the field labels, you’d have to get back to MailChimp, and like you know, clear the API cache. And that is the latest version of the plugin now, you can change your field labels. But we want to create an add-on like a Mailchimp Manager add-on so you never have to leave your dashboard ever again. And I think people would really love that ’cause the pain to have to go back and forth.

Joe Casabona: Yes, absolutely. That sounds fantastic. So very cool. We will keep an eye out for that. And that is the end of the normal numbered list, right? But there’s always one question I’d like to ask and it is do you have any trade secrets for us?

Tracy Levesque: I was talking about this to the team this morning like “What are trade secrets? What shall I say?” But I think the one thing I say is just to stay, remain calm, stay calm when you operate from a place of panic, that’s when things go wrong. And you know, when you push out an update and maybe break something do not freak out, you just calmly say “I’m really sorry. we’re on it.” Fix it, push out the update. People are forgiving, for the most part, you know, people are understanding. Not even if people are freaking out it’s like if they freak out, that makes me freak out and then start to yell at everybody who hears that, “Oh my God, we have to fix this.” And there, you know, upset and nobody’s operating from a place of calm and you can’t calmly fix the problem at that point. So just ship it and stay calm.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. I love that it reminded me of one of my favorite shows, Scrubs, where Elliot kind of talks about trainwreck codes and how to just take a deep breath and jump into and do it ’cause you’re right, you know, you need to people who panic when somebody, I should say when someone is panicking, they’re not thinking clearly and you can’t do your best work when you’re not thinking clearly, so.

Tracy Levesque: And then you’re, it’s contagious than you’re, you know, you’re spreading that panic. And I always say like we are not performing life-saving emergency surgery, we are pushing pixels around. If the Internet goes down we’re useless, you know. So it’s just, it’s OK, it’ll be OK. And one time there was a Yoast update, this was a year, a couple of years ago and you know I hit update and white screen on the client-side. And then I went over to the flora and luckily, you know, I got the TPN, turned it off like and went to the forums. It was like “Oh my God white screen” and they just, you know, five minutes later they fix it. Pushed up the patch that I mean so potentially millions of websites, white screened for a minute and you know what, nobody freaked out. I mean it wasn’t like the world did end.

Joe Casabona: Right.

Tracy Levesque: So if a plugin with million-plus installs, if something like that, it happens to everybody you know, stuff happens, mistakes happen, it’s not a big deal. So you know, our little plugin isn’t gonna make the world end if something goes wrong.

Joe Casabona: Awesome, awesome. I absolutely love that. A great way to end the show. Tracy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Tracy Levesque: It’s really fun.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, I had a ton of, man we talked about just everything, so…

Tracy Levesque: I feel like a coffee date or something.

Joe Casabona: I know, right? Like I’ve got my water here but I’m gonna go like make a coffee now. Cool. Well, that was, it was really great having you on the show, really appreciate it.

Tracy Levesque: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for listening. Thanks to sponsors BoldGrid and Liquid Web make sure to check out the Patreon page over at builtpodcast.net/pledge.

And thanks to Tracy for being on the show. Until next time, get out there and build something.