White Labeling Site Care with Ryan Sullivan

Joe Casabona: This episode of How I Built It, is brought to you by two great sponsors. The first, is our season-long sponsor. Liquid Web has been best known as a managed hosting company with tons of options. It’s also designed a managed WordPress offering that is perfect for mission-critical sites. If you’re looking for improved performance, maximized uptimes, and incredible support, Liquid web is the partner you’ve been looking for. Every liquid web managed WordPress customer has ithemes synced integrated into their managed portal allowing them to update several sites with a single touch. Liquid web hosts all of my critical websites and I couldn’t be happier with them. If you Sign up today, using the discount code ‘howibuiltit33’, you get 33% off for the next six months. Visit buildpodcast.net/liquid to get started. That’s buildpodcast.net/liquid.

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Now, our guest today is Ryan Sullivan of WP Site Care. WP Site Care is a supporter of the show. I’m really excited to have him on today. And we had an absolutely great conversation about doing things like taking your side hustle from a side hustle to a full time business, having open communication with your customers, having the ability to set expectations to meet demand, keep your customers happy and just a whole lot more. So make sure to listen to the whole episode. It’s super great. Ryan is a great guy. I’ve known him for a few years and it’s just a very valuable conversation to have whether you are in the product or the service industry. So enjoy this episode. And on with the show.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks “How did you build that?” Today my guest is Ryan Sullivan from WP Site Care. Ryan, how are you?

Ryan Sullivan: I’m doing good, Joe. How are you?

Joe Casabona: I’m fantastic. It’s sunny outside. It’s a little cold for May, which is when we’re recording this episode. But by the time it comes out in probably late June or July it’s going to be nice and hot. So I’m ready for the nice weather. So you’re out in Utah is that right?

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah, yeah. We’re enjoying the real spring weather right here now. So it’s beautiful and mid 70s and just how I wish it would stay this way all the time.

Joe Casabona: Nice. Do you guys have particularly bad winters or hot summers or both?

Ryan Sullivan: It’s not super extreme in either direction so we, in the wind in the summers it probably gets to like you know mid 90s. We get a lot of snow in the winter but it never gets bitter cold. It’s usually like the coldest it gets. I mean when it’s really cold it gets into the 20s but usually it stays right in the 20s and 30s. So I mean we do have some extremes but it’s not. I’ve been to places that are a lot hotter and a lot colder. So…

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, being on the East Coast it’s pretty, it can get extreme but it’s generally pretty mellow which is nice. So my brother lives in Florida now and he has just completely lost his tolerance for the cold. But that’s not what we’re talking about today, we’re not talking about the weather, we’re talking about WP Site Care. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and about the product and how you came up with the idea?

Ryan Sullivan: Sure, so I started WP Site Care in 2012. We’re a support and maintenance service provider for high profile bloggers, small businesses that’s typically the type of client that we serve. The idea came from just needing demand like it’s meeting a demand more than anything. So before I got into this world I worked as systems administrator for a hospital network and you know I was a tech, I was a techie [inaudible 5:26.0] I wanted to, it was a very big team and I kind of wanted to start to branch out and look at some other things. We were all, we were totally on a Microsoft stack and I heard about this whole world of open source. And so I just started experimenting with some things and had some friends who wanted some website help and tinkered for a while and you know, just kind of as a hobbyist. And what I noticed was the people who I build websites for or people who you know I would help fix some kind of issue, those same people would come back over and over and over again and always ask for help again and again and again. And that’s when I recognized that there was actually a business there. You know, turn the relationship into something that kind of sets an expectation on both sides. So all of our services are billed monthly and we agree to take care of certain things. And that’s how kind of how the relationship works. And so I just kind of started it as a side hustle as they say for the day job and it grew a lot quicker than I thought it would. And so I just kind of kept following that. And then yeah, May of 2012, no 2013, so exactly four years ago I decided to give it a go. And here we are four years later. So…

Joe Casabona: Nice, that’s awesome. So I actually want to expand on something that you mentioned which was managing the expectations, right? I feel like doing client work in general that’s pretty hard to do. But support especially, right? ‘Cause there could be bugs or updates or just new features and that’s pretty like that. I can imagine that that’s hard too to like draw a line in the sand here and say like “Oh, we hit our hours.” or “Oh, this is really covered.” So what do you, do you have any advice for kind of how to manage those expectations?

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. Communication is key. So there are definitely things that come up that are, you know, would be considered not not part of, you know, what our service agreement includes. That kind of stuff comes up all the time. It is especially prevalent in a world like WordPress because, you know, the code that’s being added to these sites comes from thousands of developers all over the world. And you know being able to manage compatibility doesn’t matter how much of a coding guideline there is. Somebody’s going to violate it and even with guidelines in place I mean that’s just how software works, right? And so without everybody working together there are certainly issues that crop up that we wouldn’t consider, you know, part of what our monthly agreements cover. However, ultimately we’re a customer service company, so we really try and not get too hung up on the work that would be considered “extra”. We really try to do the best of our ability. Make that, you know, kind of part of the cost of doing business and maintaining a long term relationship. However, we also…by having that kind of attitude it really makes it super easy for the customer when we do go to them with something that, you know, is super, you know, either complex or out of scope or requires a bunch of extra time that we just didn’t account for it makes them a lot more willing to accept that, “Wow! You know, I knew, I know you always go the extra mile. And so for this thing, you know, I definitely should pay for, you know, I should definitely pay to have that handled.”

So I guess the advice would be to, you know, as much as you’re able to chalk up those small things and just kind of eat that whenever you know whenever you can. And when you can’t, when you go to the customer we’ve found that they’ve been super reasonable and willing and open to “OK. Well, yeah I know that you know if you’re telling me that this is extra then for sure it must be extra because you don’t tell me it’s extra hardly ever?”

Joe Casabona: Gotcha, yes. That’s a bit of a give and take, right? You take care of the small things and then you’re not the contract who always says no or it’s always gonna be extra, right? So that’s a great piece of advice there.

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. I mean if you think about how you work with a mechanic, you know, if every time you go to a mechanic he gives you a laundry list of all the stuff that needs to be taken care of and the costs associated with that and line items every single thing, you know, you’re going to get your oil changed in $350.00. Later you wanna take your car home that just doesn’t feel good and you’re probably going to shop for somebody else.

Our entire business is based on a long term relationship with the customer. So we’re not looking for a 60 day cash grab. We want to have a relationship that lasts with the customer for years and years and years. And the only way we can really build that trust is to give where we can and where we can’t. We are just super honest and clear and the customer, you know, for the most part has been really really willing to accept that.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, awesome. but that’s an excellent takeaway. So we’re less than 10 minutes in and you, the listeners already have something really good takeaway. But let’s move on to the rest of the questions. There’s a lot of stuff that we can talk about here so like I feel like 90% of my guests this was something that started off as a side project. For you, you saw the need so you went and did it. But did you do any research before starting the company or when you knew you wanted to go kind of full time? And move from your side hustle to your full hustle I guess, and maybe you could talk about that.

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. I was way too stupid to do any of that. The only people I really listened to at the time and this is probably, you know, in hindsight is probably a good thing but definitely not something I would recommend. The only people I listen to are the people who are giving me money like the people who were my customers, who opened what it is they wanted, who told me what it is they needed. Those were the people that I listened to. And I didn’t go out and kind of vet this is a business idea.

I didn’t do the market research. I didn’t, you know, talk to people. I mean part of the problem was I didn’t have anybody in, like my personal circle that I could really have a conversation about this at all because it’s like, this was new. When we started this, this was a new concept even in the WordPress space itself. Let alone, you know, most of the people that were in my circles worked in healthcare or systems administration. I mean it wasn’t, I didn’t even have a good circle of people that I could have bounced that off of so that was part of it. But more than anything, I wasn’t really even seeking that advice. I definitely, you know, I would have made a lot of decisions, different decisions had I gone that route and sought out the advice of some of those people. But I also don’t know if I would have just gone for it. At the moment I’ve been listening to anybody other than my customers so you know, it’s one of those things where I feel like it’s for sure a best practice to, you know, do some of that groundwork but I didn’t.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. But I mean that’s a really good point about, you know, I’ll use my parents as an example. Like mom and dad right? If I told them I want to start my own business and they like immediately poo pooed not poo pooed but they immediately got worried at the idea because there are baby boomers right? So they think you go off to an office and you work there for 40 years and then you retire. So they’re going to get worried and if you talk to enough people that tell you the risks you might not be willing to take that risk yourself. So you definitely want to get the right amount of advice but you don’t want people to talk you out of it in the process.

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. I have been fortunate that way. My parents started their own company about 25 years ago and they recently sold it the last couple of years. But they were supportive from the beginning just because it had been a good experience for them to be small business owners. And so even though they didn’t really fully understand what it was I was getting into or really have any idea, they kind of trusted my intuition and knew I wasn’t a complete moron and they knew I was a moron but not a complete moron and you know we were supportive from the beginning so I did have that going for me.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. But as far as people within your field you said there weren’t too many. How about now, four years later, are you part of a mastermind group? Or do you bounce new services or anything like that often to people within the WordPress space?

Ryan Sullivan: I’m not in, you know, it’s not for lack of trying. So I have been in a couple what I found is the groups that I’ve kind of tried to be apart of specifically within WordPress or very, you know, WordPress is a bubble and I felt like most of the opinions and experience shared from shirt from those groups weren’t were within the context of that bubble. They were, you know, I want to have more insight into what my customers are feeling and thinking which are rarely people who are living and breathing in the WordPress ecosystem. And so I’ve looked outside a little bit, we have, you know, we’ve got to, you know, the local Chamber of Commerce type stuff but again that’s a different, you know, that’s more networking that’s that’s a little bit different thing. And then there’s some other groups, some more national groups like Vistage and Corporate Alliance and some other mastermind groups that are kind of more organized and more focused on kind of that next level of business and all the different people inside those circles. And I’ve gone to some of those and had kind of mixed results. So there’s a good, the, you know, there’s a good chance that the problem is me and not these groups. But I’m not in a group right now but I have been actively looking for one that felt like a good fit where I felt like I could learn a lot and you know, bring that value back to back to my business.

Joe Casabona: Nice, nice, yeah. And it’s, I mean that’s a really good point in my mastermind group. I’ve got, there’s four of us and there’s one person who’s not in the WordPress space and we seem to value his opinion a lot because of that, right? Were all the rest of the three of us are kind of in the same circles and no kind of the same things and of the same outlook. But my friend who’s not in the WordPress space provides that extra kind of, this is how it is in the startup world or this is where the New York tech scene is at, and stuff like that. So it’s definitely, you definitely need to find the right fit where you’re getting value from somebody but you’re also, you know, you’re also imparting some sort of value on the other members of the group.

Ryan Sullivan: Totally, totally agree.

Joe Casabona: Cool. So with that, we are at the title question. So WP Site Care is a WordPress essentially maintenance and support site, right? So maybe you could tell us a little bit about like how much coding you guys do but also like what kind of tools do you use to help support your websites and troubleshooting, things like that?

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. So in the beginning it was me answering emails in Gmail 24/7 and not having really any systems in place other than yep, I’ll take care of it. And shockingly that doesn’t scale though very well , you know, you can’t really transition that to even a second person. Let alone you know 10 or 12 or 15 and so things have changed a lot over the years. And we really in the last year and a half have really started investing in I guess it’s maybe even two years really investing in systems and kind of being proactive, super proactive about how we manage our customer sites. And so we do, I mean we have full development services at WP Site Care. However we really were what we typically like to do is refer that type of work out to agencies because it’s where we can really provide the most value for our customers is to be that customer service that almost consultant that can be trusted by the customer to be the point of communication. We’re kind of you know, direct the next move with their website and make sure that kind of those core things are taken care of.

So in terms of tools, we’re used to how we built it right now. We’ve used a lot more tools in the past and we’ve really been streamlining and investing more in integrations and some automation and that kind of thing. So right now we have a custom CRM that we built. It sits on top of WordPress that’s where all of our customer records live in terms of, you know, what their customer status is, what the status of their website is. We have a custom plugin that lives on the customer site that talks to that CRM through the WP API. All of the customer tickets we use Help Scout’s are helps that help desk and all of their tickets are attached to that custom CRM that we’ve built. And that’s, you know, for any project work we do use basecamp but the core of what we do lives in that relationship between the customer website and that CRM and Help Scout. That’s kind of what we’ve really figured out exactly what we need to be able to manage these customer sites well. And that’s what we’re using at the moment. But we’ve used, I mean, I can’t tell you the number of tools we’ve gone through trying to figure out is this the right one.

And I think the thing that I would, you know, share or recommend is design your process first and then find the software to match it because there is software for anything that you want to do. Truly anything that you want to do online there is a software, there is a tool that will help make that happen more quickly. But we didn’t have our process in place first so we started thinking these tools were the answer. We started thinking these tools were the secret sauce and ultimately we ended up with a custom CRM because we didn’t find exactly what we were looking for in a CRM solution. But we only got there because we finally hammered down this is the information we need to operate our business. This is what we need to provide great customer service until we decided and figure out exactly what that was. The tool really was kind of irrelevant. So yeah, so that’s what we use now. But I would just, you know, kind of attach a cautionary tale to any tools ’cause there isn’t a, you know, an all be all for any type of software.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah. It’s like I guess it’s like determining well. I need a vehicle and then he just kind of buy like a boat ’cause the boat looks cool and they’re running a deal on the boat but you don’t do any water travel right? So, right. Need to figure out something else.

Ryan Sullivan: Right, great analogy. Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Thanks. So that’s pretty cool. So you have a custom CRM and a custom plugin installed on your customer sites. Since you’re doing kind of like the consultant work and providing a lot of support, maybe we could talk a little bit about what kind of information, let me see if I can work this the right way right? I just spoke to Russell Aaron recently about maintenance and they have a plugin that kind of gives them diagnostics on a website when they’re troubleshooting a website. So do you have something similar in place for that or do you try to kind of talk more to the client about what they’re looking for in the troubles they are having?

Ryan Sullivan: The answer is both, yeah. So that’s all totally invisible to the customer but it is something that is attached to any communication that comes from the customer. So they send it to us even though they don’t know they’re sending it to us like we really try to reduce. Our kind of goal with any type of customer communication is to reduce friction and reduce the focus on technology. Meaning we want customers to have a good idea of kind of more or less how things work on their website but they don’t need to know anything about PHP versions or my SQL or you know, plugin count like that’s not something, that’s not information that they really should even have to try and track in their brain. And so we kind of try and eliminate all anything around that and talk to them like people. So we really focus on the communication piece so when they talk to us, that information is being shared back and forth but it’s really about kind of their core concern because rarely are they emailing, you know, letting us know that they want to upgrade to PHP seven. They’re emailing us because their website is running a little bit slow and they want to know if there is any way to improve the performance. So they want to solve the real business application, real-world application of these things. And you know, that’s but yet the plugin that we have does handle that to some degree.

Joe Casabona: Nice, yeah. That’s I mean, that reducing friction is another great piece of advice, right? ‘Cause as a web developer, the first thing I’ll ask if they see a bug on their website that I don’t see is what browser are you using and I’ve got, and I click on the blue E like I’ve gotten that as an answer back. And again it’s not the browser they’re using doesn’t matter, it’s just they want to make sure what they’re seeing works the way they expect it to. So…

Ryan Sullivan: Totally, yeah.

Joe Casabona: So that’s awesome. So we talked a little bit about the history. So maybe we can combine these next two questions into one, right? And that’s what transformations has WP Site Care gone through since it first launched and I know you touched on that a little bit and what are your plans for the future?

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah. so we have made some pretty significant changes not only to the way we operate but also to really figuring out who we can help the most. And as you know, we’ve worked with companies like Disney and Zillow and Comcast and we worked with these enterprise players and it’s been great for our business and to get some recognition. However we found where we really provide the most value is for the high profile Blogger and for small business owners. So that’s really where we feel like we can give kind of the most bang for the buck and that’s what like again this kind of all ties into that long term relationship with the customer thing because if we, you know, if we’re giving everything we can to an enterprise client and hitting 90% in like keeping them mostly happy, that’s a very different experience than being really freaking awesome for the small business customer or for the high profile Blogger. And so that that kind of plays into you know, the enterprise customer. They’re not going to probably feel very much loyalty to us. But a company of 12 who you know sells insurance they’re going to stick with us as long as they’re in business. And I think the difference is that last 10% where we’re just really doing a fantastic job and like really delivering on everything they’re asking us for. And so that’s one of the big evolutions we’ve had is just figuring out where we can really do our best work. And that’s where we have kind of settled so that’s part of it

And so the future is really just to focus on that, right? Really adapt to that, that’s a realization we’ve probably had in the last year or so. And so our marketing and the language we use and any type of you know growth that we try and experience is going to be with that sole focus of really reaching out to those groups and really growing our business with you know, with the high profile Blogger with the small business owner. So I would say you know will continue to invest more in in systems and process and making sure that we’re super locked in as when it comes to you know our efficiency and I would love to add another 100 customers without hiring another person like that’s that’s you know a goal I would like I would like to accomplish. But that’s more of a selfish thing than anything to do with kind of what the outside world will see about WP Site Care. But yeah, I mean we’re going to just continue to establish ourselves as the company to go to, you know, when\ you need tech help for your WordPress site.

Joe Casabona: That’s excellent. And I love that answer because it’s, you know, you could say that the niche that you’re in is WordPress site, right? But you take it one step further because WordPress sites are such a diverse thing that you came to the realization that enterprise customers probably aren’t the best fit for you, or they are, or you are not the best fit for them or vice versa. And it goes back to communication and forging a relationship. So that’s excellent. And I know you’ve given us a ton of great advice already, but do you have any trade secrets for us?

Ryan Sullivan: Yeah, trade secrets. Trade secrets is a funny thing because I have a pretty good one that I think I don’t know if I would call it a trade secret but something that I kind of came to the realization of maybe in the last couple years. But something that’s really sunk in the more that I talk with people and the more that I have networking opportunities and that kind of thing is nobody knows what they’re doing. Everybody is lost and everybody is hustling and everybody wants to figure out like you know what the next right step is. And like I’ve gone like one of the things I mentioned earlier was these Vistage groups. I mean the monthly fees for joining vestiges you know, it starts at like 2000 bucks a month and goes up from there depending on your involvement. Like these are people, these are executives, a lot of the people who go to these meetings are executives and fortune 1000 like they’re the real deal, right? And I would go into these meetings where there’s supposed to be a high level of transparency. And these people who everybody looks at and goes “Wow! They’ve got it all figured out.” would sit in these meetings and say “I don’t know what to do.” And that was one of those things that really just has stuck with me. And you know, the kind of thing that I feel like is super important to remind yourself of every day, like obviously work hard. Obviously do the best. You know, how in the moment but there isn’t you know, nobody knows what they’re doing every minute of every day. That’s just the reality.

Joe Casabona: That’s awesome. I absolutely love that. And then it kind of Harkins back to like a thing I was saying in Season One, right? You said it seems like these guys have it all figured out but they sit in these meetings going I don’t know what to do just like me. And you sit there, go like how do I make my business work? And you know, we only ever see the exterior, right? We see the Olympic gold medal at gold medalists after they’ve won the gold medal. What we don’t see is the hard decisions they make in their personal life to skip things because they’re practicing, you’re training or whatever. So that’s some great, great perspective. I love that. And with that we are onto the Fast Five section. So I’ve only done this with a few people so far. It’s new for Season Three so I’m still trying to like find my sea legs as to properly transition and how exactly going to put it. But I’m gonna ask you the questions anyway and we can fix this and post. so I want you to give me your gut reaction, your gut answer to the first four questions. Number 5 is a little bit more in depth. Ryan Sullivan, are you ready?

Ryan Sullivan: Let’s do it.

Joe Casabona: All right. What is your favorite book?

Ryan Sullivan: ‘Drive’ by Daniel pink.

Joe Casabona: All right. ‘Drive’ by Daniel pink. What kind of music do you like to listen to?

Ryan Sullivan: Punk or Rock.

Joe Casabona: Nice. Who’s your favorite band?

Ryan Sullivan: Well I’m old school so [inaudible 30.48.3] Bad Religion, Pennywise. That’s kind of what I grew up with and still what I go back to a lot.

Joe Casabona: Nice ticket. That was one of the questions. But I also like punk, rock music. So I was curious. I think I might be a little bit after you ’cause I’m a Blink 182, New Found Glory, and then in high school like Gold Winding Way kid musically but like I’m not really proud of that one. Awesome. What’s your favorite food?

Ryan Sullivan: Fried Chicken.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Ryan Sullivan: It shows.

Joe Casabona: I love pizza and it’s the same for me. Who is your favorite sports team? Any sport.

Ryan Sullivan: Utah Jazz.

Joe Casabona: Utah Jazz. I think I probably could have guessed that one based on the smack talk I see on Facebook.

Ryan Sullivan: That there’s not even a close second place. That’s my team.

Joe Casabona: Nice. And the final question which it does not have to be a gut reaction question. You get a little bit of thought into this one if you like. How did you learn what you know and it’s a pretty broad question. So it could be about your business or about WordPress or about something else that really interests you? How did you learn a thing that you know?

Ryan Sullivan: By doing every single time. I mean anything in my life that I mean there are so many things that you know, I’ve read and you know, done research prior. But the type of learning that has always stuck with me whether it be in relationships and work in anything that I’ve done you know, I’m being a parent. And anything I’ve done in my life the only stuff that’s really stuck with me or been the best is in terms of learning has been actually taking action. So that’s how I learn.

Joe Casabona: Awesome. I love that. I say that all the time. Learn by doing. Ryan, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Ryan Sullivan: I was happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Joe Casabona: Like I said, great conversation. Thanks so much again Ryan for being on the show.

Thank you to our sponsors, Liquidweb and Sitelock. Make sure to check them out. They are fantastic huge supporters of not only this podcast but the entire WordPress community so definitely check them out. They’re absolutely great.

And if you could do me an absolute solid, if you want to help people discover this show, the best way to do that is by rating the show in Apple podcasts or iTunes whichever brand you recognize more, they are the same one. So head over to Apple podcast, I think that’s what they call it now and give us a rating and a review. And if you do that perhaps I will read it on the show as a super special thank you.

So thanks so much. And again, until next time, get out there and build something.