Creating the Best Donations Platform on WordPress with the GiveWP Team

Joe Casabona: This episode of How I Built It, is brought to you by two great sponsors. The first, is our season-long sponsor. Liquid Web has been best known as a managed hosting company with tons of options. It’s also designed a managed WordPress offering that is perfect for mission-critical sites. If you’re looking for improved performance, maximized uptimes, and incredible support, Liquid web is the partner you’ve been looking for. Every liquid web managed WordPress customer has ithemes synced integrated into their managed portal allowing them to update several sites with a single touch. Liquid web hosts all of my critical websites and I couldn’t be happier with them. If you Sign up today, using the discount code ‘howibuiltit33’, you get 33% off for the next six months. Visit buildpodcast.net/liquid to get started. That’s buildpodcast.net/liquid.

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Now, today’s guest is the team over at GiveWP. If you don’t know what GiveWP is, well you’ll learn a bit more about it on the show. But it’s essentially a way for you to easily accept pledges and donations on your WordPress site. And I really really loved talking to the guys over at GiveWP about developing the software. But also one of the big main points we hit was about support and building a good support system for your software. So we talk about that and just a whole lot more in this fantastic episode. I loved it. I hope you love it as much as I did. So without further ado, on with the show

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks “How did you build that?” Today, my guests are Matt Cromwell and Devin Walker of GiveWP. Guys, thanks for joining me today.

Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

Devin Walker: Yeah, thank you.

Joe Casabona: No problem. So I’m really excited to talk to you guys. I learned about you awhile ago, I had Ben on the show a few weeks ago, at this point talking about his side projects. But I originally reached out to him to talk about GiveWP so he sent me your way. So why don’t we jump right into it? Why don’t you tell the listeners who you are, and what you do, and how you came up with the idea?

Devin Walker: Sure. My name is Devin, and I’m the lead developer of Give and have been working with WordPress for probably eight years now. And we started this company about four years ago and since then we’ve been growing year over year since.

Matt Cromwell: And I’m Matt Cromwell. I’m one of the co-authors of Give with Devin and I had support here. And yeah, like you said, we’re happy, things are going well. We’re about, we’re going into our third year now. It feels like it was only yesterday, it was a baby.

Joe Casabona: Awesome! So how did you come up with the idea for Give?

Devin Walker: Yeah. So we were working with a lot of nonprofit clients, originally when we started our company and all of them had the need to accept donations and fortunately a lot of the tools that were out during the time weren’t specifically meant for accepting donations. We were using a lot of e-commerce platforms that are kind of muscle donations through. And then also various form builders which kind of lacked a lot of the reporting and some of the donor management features that we thought were necessary. You could kind of get those from the E-commerce platforms but then the donor experience lagged in those. There’s just a give and take every which way we went. There were cloud solutions available but being in the WordPress environment and working with the clients that we were, we knew that a lot of those solutions one fit as well. So we put our heads together and decided that we wanted to build something that could solve that issue that we kept running into. And we spent, you know, a couple months drafting up the idea, going through, you know, the process of developing the product, and then eventually on to like the beta launch and release.

Joe Casabona: Nice, very nice. So I mean it’s essentially you guys were scratching an itch that you had. Is that right?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah. I mean at that time that was working with nonprofits knew that donations were problematic in WordPress. And so there was an obvious need and no one had really nailed it yet so we were like, “Let’s make sure that we nailed it.”

Joe Casabona: Awesome, yeah, I mean I’ve done plenty of work for nonprofits and it’s always copy and paste the HTML that PayPal gives you and put it on the site to get this big ugly PayPal button. But yeah. So this sounds great. So this actually reminds me a lot of Patreon right? Which is like a hosted solution. Are you guys familiar with that at all?

Matt and David: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: So would you say it compares to Patreon or it does more or less than that? Or…

Matt Cromwell: Patreon is a different type of fund raising. It’s a very specific kind that’s focused a lot more on milestones and whatnot. They have some other types of variety as well. But there they were really launched more as in a specific type of fund raising technique. So kind of like a hosted form of Kickstarter in many ways whereas we’re more focused on the general online donation need in general not on a specific type of fundraising. So when we’re branching out more and more in the different kinds of fundraising and a lot of people have extended given different ways to do different types of fundraising with Give, that really means open source and extensible and whatnot. But at work, we were a little bit more general usage rather than specific.

Joe Casabona: Nice, yeah. Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. And you know I had a handy stitch on the show in Season Two talking about you know, developing websites for nonprofits and there’s a…I think probably a stigma, right? Of doing work for nonprofits, that there’s no money in doing work for nonprofits . But GiveWP, correct me if I’m wrong, is it Premium? Is it free with paid add-ONS, is that right?

Matt Cromwell: Correct.

Joe Casabona: And you guys are building a business around that, right?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: You built a business around it clearly.

Devin Walker: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Cool. So are most of your customers like nonprofit organizations or web developers who do work for nonprofits? Or…

Matt Cromwell: All of us. I mean the nonprofit organizations are the end result of how Give is implemented most often whether or not it’s the actual employee like a secretary, or a tech guy from the nonprofits or it’s an agency or freelancer that’s implementing it on their behalf. It’s you know, we kind of think it’s kind of 40/40 and then 20% miscellaneous terms of customer base. But generally speaking, nonprofits love using Give so they are the large majority of our customers for sure.

Joe Casabona: Nice, yeah. It makes absolute sense, right? If you’re going to use something that enables you to make more money for your organization, it makes sense to pay for the better tool to help you make more money. But you know, aside from that I can…I recently launched a Patreon but I could see myself moving that kind of functionality which is why I asked for kind of selfishly over to Give because it’s a similar model that gives me more control. And if I’m not benefiting from the audience that Patreon would give me, you know, it’s better than just keep all the profits for myself as much as possible. So great! So we spent a few minutes about kind of getting listeners acclimated with the idea of GiveWP and ended all of its great uses. We touched on this a little bit but what kind of research did you do when jumping into maybe, is this your first paid plugin?

Matt Cromwell: No.

Joe Casabona: Okay. So then what kind of research did you do specifically for GiveWP to market that and get that out into the open?

Devin Walker: Yeah. Well we did a lot of outreach to our current customers or clients that we were working with. As I mentioned, we were working with a number of nonprofits. and Matt did a lot of you know idea kind of passing off through his connections as well to see what they thought about it, what kind of features they most want to see you know, and what you know type of admin interface and in front end interface would be best put together for the plug in. So you know, it’s a good couple of weeks, probably four days, week so we spent kind of in the idea phase kind of, you know, hashing out these details that you know, would eventually become the plug in.

Joe Casabona: Nice, yes. So tapping your kind of current basis based on what my other guests have told me as well is just a great starting point, right? You have people who need what you’re building. So it’s kind of easy to draw from them on that same token. Are you guys part of a mastermind group or do you talk to people about the business side of things kind of like your colleagues or contemporaries?

Devin Walker: Yeah. I’m not part of a mastermind. I have been a part of a thing two or three now. I’m in one right now with a lot of good folks who do similar types of platforms. All WordPress developers within it are business owners and that’s been a couple two.

Matt Cromwell: Yeah. And most of the insights I get along those lines typically are more one to one with just relationships that I’ve built over time. I love being folks on Facebook and being like, “Hey, you got 10 minutes to chat about subscriptions or something like that?” And you know, that’s what’s great about the WordPress community in general is everybody is so eager to share their insights and their knowledge. And I take advantage of that every time I can.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. I mean this podcast would not exist without people like you and my previous guests coming on and sharing their stories and their insights. So I’m definitely appreciative of that as well. So we’ve talked a lot about kind of the building the plug in at this point and we’re getting to the title question. But Matt, you mentioned that you’re head of support, is that right? So do you research any techniques or tools or things like that to help with the support side? Have you experimented with different types of support?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Actually when we launched Give we were using the bbPress for our main support tool. And I really enjoyed it because it was, you know, embedded in the WordPress space and built by WordPress folks and open source. I like the idea that support was very public. It did definitely generate some SCO juice for our website as well but we found that basically we didn’t have any data about our support at all. We didn’t know how we were doing, like how quickly do we answer tickets, how quickly can we close them, how many cut tickets do we even have? We didn’t…I mean bbPress doesn’t have that information baked into it. We started building out a bunch of different tools and using a hodgepodge of different bbPress forum extensions that others had built for support purposes. And we just found that we were spending so much time trying to make the press work to our purposes rather than actually doing the support that we decided to go to Help Scout which is a very common move that a lot of WordPress shops do. And since doing that, and basically for me opened up the floodgates of data that I’m able to analyze exactly where, who our customers are, and what kind of questions are asking, and how quickly we respond to them, and how many responses do they get. That opens up a lot for us. so Help Scout has been major. I still want them to improve a lot, I have lots of needs, I’m one of the crappy customers of Help Scout like, “Why haven’t you fixed this yet?” But that’s been really good.

And I also, I did actually a presentation last year at WordCamp in LA on scaling support with data and that kind of shares a lot of what I’ve been doing in terms of where at that point. We’re just starting to grow at that point and I wanted to know what I should expect in terms of what if I wake up on a Monday and I’ve got five times as many tickets as I could handle like I didn’t want that to ever be the case. So I wanted to get some sort of formula in place to know where our trends in sales and support tickets were going so that I knew when I needed to push the gas to hire some new support and that’s proven really valuable. So…

Joe Casabona: That’s awesome! So I’m going to…assuming that your talk is up on WordCamp TV?

Matt Cromwell: I will link.

Joe Casabona: Great! I will link that in the Show Notes for anybody interested. But I love that! I love that I have both of you on the show because building the product is one thing. I feel like for a lot of people or maybe just me like support is kind of an afterthought like I’m going to launch the product and then I’ll think about support later. But it’s really important to get out in front of, especially if you have a product because if you get, you know the same question 100 times a day there’s probably things that you can do to better field or manage or prevent you from getting that question 100 times a day, right?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah for sure. I mean actually the reason why we’re both on here and the way we run everything is because all of these different departments overlap with each other a lot. We can’t do quality development without the insight and feedback that we get from our support channel. And we can’t do really good marketing unless that’s informed by our development and marketing gets a lot of insights just by jumping in Help Scout regularly. And so for us, the whole thing is very much a team endeavour. None of it could really happen without the other. So the same just with support like everything I do right now is really highly dependent on my team to get it done and it’s super important that I mean there’s a prestonics.

I think two years ago, Brian Krogsgard did this create presentation about the state of business, WordPress businesses. And one thing he said that will stick with me forever he’s like, “You built a plugin, congratulations! You’re a support company.” And it’s really really true. I mean you can’t function in the WordPress space if you have a product without high quality support and the folks that don’t support front end center don’t get it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s great! Well, that’s excellent. I really love what Brian Krogsgard said. It makes perfect sense.

And now that we are about halfway through the show, let’s get to the title question. So since I’ve got both of you on, I know Matt you just talked a little bit about your tools but maybe you can expand on a couple or talk about techniques, but how did you build GiveWP, and you can talk about your process or your tools or whatever. And then how did you maybe talk about the first time Matt, that you had to scale support, and how you build that scaling, how you build that to scale?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Tools for me I mean, basically are the things that I interact with every single day are Help Scout, GitHub, Phpstorm and my local environment which currently is desktop server. And those things for me are the cracks of how I get everything done when it comes to understanding my customers of course. And the way support is going I take the data that I find in Help Scout and they have some really good reports that come right out of the box. You can just click a couple buttons and get a pretty decent report overview. But for me, I also needed to know how support related to sales. For me knowing I can only know what that trend is if I understand support tickets compared to sales numbers. And those numbers are in Help Scout. So what I did is take our sales data, and I put it into a Google spreadsheet. I take our Help Scout data, put that data into the Google spreadsheet, line them up in different columns and then I pursue my different formulas. The formula I use week to week now is actually very different from the one that I shared at WordCamp LA last year. But it’s all based on the same idea that I have to understand support ticket numbers compared to sales numbers. And all of that basically, that’s my final tool is Google spreadsheets basically or Excel or whatever you like to use. But playing that in there, and running those formulas, that way is crucial for me, personally. Does that answer your question or am I getting at the heart of it?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah absolutely. It’s a pretty open ended question so I get a lot of different answers. But that was really good. You kind of talked about your tools and why you have those tools. So Devin why don’t we talk to you about the development side of things you know, what was your approach to developing Give and stuff like that?

Devin Walker: Yes. So when we first started off you know, got to the phase where we’re thinking about or we’re going forward with the development of the product, I knew that you know we’re in the open source world and there’s a lot of code that we can use to kind of get us ahead within the timeline of development of it. So we did a lot of development on our own but we also looked at other resources out there in the open source world which we could leverage to, you know, do things like build the front end form or power the engine that manages a lot of the processing of donations in the back end. So we, you know, leveraged a lot of open source code and kind of fork that into what became the initial beta give and have been iterating on that for about two and a half years since making it really our own code base in our own extendable framework if you will. And it really allowed us to bootstrap our company and to get to market a whole heck of a lot faster than if we were to just build this all from scratch. So you know, there’s a lot of different types of developers out there that really can see the power and can harness the open source environment, you know, community that where in. And then there are others who want to really just build everything from scratch. They only trust their own code. Personally, I’m the first developer type. I see, you know WordPress and the entire open source community being better by leveraging each other’s code bases. So that’s really what allowed us to get off the ground up and running quickly. And sure you know, we’re still doing stuff today to refactor some code that you know might not work exactly how it would have been if we had done it ourselves from the get go. But then again we might have just launched six months ago rather than two and a half years ago. And that matter cost us, you know, four times as much. So that was really the key to the way we built our product from the development standpoint

Joe Casabona: Awesome, awesome! That sounds great. Man, I really do love getting both perspectives. Cool. So why don’t we talk about and definitely hinted at this a little bit from the dev side. What transformations has Give gone through? So you know, maybe you launched with a specific feature set and you added this big piece of functionality later or you know that’s the kind of question that says, right? Like did you launch add-ONS later and stuff like that?

Matt Cromwell: So we launched with the number of add-oNS, I think it was like how many add-ons like six to ten add-ons initially. And the majority of them were payment gateways like launch with stripe or authorize.net all the popular payment gateways. And people looked at those and they said, “This is great!” You know, but we really want to be able to, one, add custom fields the donation form and two, accept recurring donations. So we didn’t really suspect that when we launched. We new recurring donations were going to be a big feature but the amount of development that would have taken to launch with our product would have been very difficult to get that to work you know, to launch at the same time. So about six to eight months after we launched, we released recurring donations and then I think around the same time frame we launched the form field manager which allows you to add those custom fields. Both those add-ONS were pretty much must-have add-ONS for a lot of our customers. And I mean if you look at the success of our plugin the first six months it was doing all right. But then after we released those add-ONS, and we released them at the right time, we really started to see some success in the product.

Joe Casabona: That’s awesome! So I wanna parse out what you said about the right time. Was it like a specific time of year that you launched it? Or was it just like a specific time in the life of Give that you did it? Were you guys starting to pick up scenes? Can you guys elaborate on that a little bit?

Devin Walker: Yeah. You know I think, it was that, it would have been nicer if it was in December when a lot of the giving happens. But you know, we didn’t want to launch a sort of beta version at the time. So we launched in early January and we kind of played off of it’s a new year here’s your new products you know. And Matt did a lot of the lead up and build up to the launch. So Matt, why don’t you kinda talk about what you did to kind of get the word out there and all that?

Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I mean that goes a lot when I was saying earlier about how our department’s depend on each other. During the time from like halfway through development of recurring donations for example, I was getting 10,15 requests a day for recurring donations. And I thought people were going to come out of our office with pitchforks and torches because they were so adamant that it can’t be a donation plugin without recurring donations. And I just kept saying you know, “We’re building it, it’s going to be incredible. Hang in there.” Early on in that Phase I learned the number one lesson that every plugin developer should know is that never give deadlines. I did the bad thing of telling some people that we were going to be done at a certain time and we weren’t even close to that time. That’s kind of where the pitchforks came from. But the biggest thing was just basically when people start to say “I really really want this!” You’re like, “I know you want it, don’t don’t push it away.” like be like, Okay! Mental note or tag it or something. But it’s somewhere because once you find how they do it, it’s time to push push push be like, “Hey, that thing that you said, you did, you desperately needed it’s available now. and even before the launch we emailed out a couple of emails saying “Hey, it’s coming very very soon. Here’s some previews of it. It’s gonna be amazing!” Basically, the word I use all the time is ‘primed the pump’. When you’re getting ready for a big release like that, you have to prime the pump and I’ve seen a couple shops do a really good job of that. Beaver Builder did a really good job of promoting their Beaver themer I think is what it’s called. They had a long lead up to that and it did a really good job with creating excitement around that release. And I’m certain that paid off when it finally was released. I keep meaning to follow up with them like I chat with them often to see how successful it was because it seemed like they did a really good job there. But the more you can find that pump for something that’s a must have like Kevin said the better it is. And that’s really done, I really do think like person to person I mean you could write blog articles and whatnot but if you know somebody is interested you have to hold on to that conversation and come back, circle back on it and say, “Hey, we’re about two weeks out from releasing. This I know you said you want. It’s gonna be great.” So that when that final email does come, they jump immediately which is what they did was required. It was, there’s a big deal, it is great.

Joe Casabona: Nice, that’s awesome. So we’re coming up on time and I’ve still got the two questions I like to ask the most and then the bonus round. So what are your plans for the future?

Matt Cromwell: For Give?

Joe Casabona: Yeay, yeah. I’m sorry. What are the plans for the future with Give? Do you have any…At the time, this is being recorded on May 25th, the 40th anniversary of Star Wars, I gotta say. It’s probably a launch going to launch, people are listening to this now and it’s probably July. sS did you just launch any new feet like you put yourself in July? Did you just launch any new features? Are you close to coming out with anything new? I know you just said never give deadlines but…

Matt Cromwell: Ahahah, yeah. So come July we’re gonna be coming up onto our 2.0 release which mentions we’re doing a lot of refactoring and in the core plugin. But we’re also enhancing a lot of the features such as how emails are created, how they’re previewed, how you can send test emails, how you can have multiple recipients. We’re doing a whole lot with the emails and customization on that.

As well for developers, there’s a whole lot of good stuff under the hood. We’re coming out with this new forms API where you can pretty much make any sort of donation form. You want whether it’s a one page simple form or a multi step form similar to how maybe Obama’s form works on his charity website really making it possible for you to make any sort of donation form you want with Give as well.

We’re also gonna be doing a lot with our database schema and really reorganizing a lot of the data so it can handle one. It’s more efficient and more lightweight on your core WordPress table so we’re going to be moving a lot of data out of some core WordPress tables and into our own tables. We see a lot of these top e-commerce plugins like WooCommerce doing this. Now you know back in a couple of years ago custom tables used to be sort of a look down upon in WordPress but now as long as you’re responsibly handing that data making it easy to uninstall that data when you want. And to remove those tables, it’s actually a really good thing. So 2.0 is chock full of good things as well. We’ll be releasing the new add-ons and I’m going to be working on peer to peer and some crowdfunding add-ONS here in the next couple months. So you know if you want to make a site similar to Kickstarter or maybe Patreon or more of a directory style, pure to pure sort of campaigning that will be available within what we’re thinking.

Matt Cromwell: We’re in July right now. We’re in the time frame, within..No deadlines.

Devin Walker: But yeah. Those are really priorities for us and that’s what’s coming up in the future.

Joe Casabona: Nice. So those are maybe out and maybe coming soon depending on when this episode drops.

Matt Cromwell: No promises.

Joe Casabona: Yes, yes, yes. But that sounds fantastic. And I’m excited to check those out because that sounds like a lot of really really great stuff that’s going to be, you know, I think more obviously applicable to more than just the nonprofit community like we were talking about at the top of the show.

Awesome! so my favorite question to ask and you both can give an answer if you’d like, do you have any trade secrets for us?

Devin Walker: Hmm, that’s a tough question. Our trade secrets or WordPress in general trade secrets?

Joe Casabona: Anything that you deem worthy advice to give to dozens of listeners. I’m just kidding! It’s like a lot of, you know, I love my listeners.

Devin Walker: Hundreds of thousands of millions of listeners.

Joe Casabona: Hundreds, millions of listeners. So…

Devin Walker: So what is the trade secret? I don’t know, I’ve gotta meet up since…

Matt Cromwell: We’re big on community that’s for sure.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Devin Walker: In open source there are no secrets.

Matt Cromwell: Me, personally like, when it comes to like I have the same that I like to, I lean on other people all the time for their insights and everything. Sometimes I joke about how a lot of people will know exactly how everyone wants their copies like everyone knows whether, just like my wife is really good at this. She knows whether you like it black or with sugar or whatever. Me, personally my thing is I have a thing where I know everybody’s ‘batt phone’ is what I call it. I know if they like to be contacted on Skype or on Twitter or on Facebook or in Slack or which they like, that’s one of my things. I’m like, I know where people like to be contacted because I want to be able to get a response back quickly and not be like, “Oh, I didn’t see this for two weeks.” So, yeah.

Joe Casabona: That’s great. That’s actually two great pieces of advice, right? Go to meetups, there’s likely one in whatever town you are in. And know how people like to be contacted. That’s great because people will send me a Facebook message, and I will not see that for weeks or I definitely won’t respond to it for weeks because I don’t have the notification badge turned on. The thing that’s telling me like “Hey get rid of me” because it bothers you. I can’t have any, like I have a game where I need to get rid of the red badges on my phone. So text messages are probably the best way to get an answer from me.

Awesome! Well, thank you so much guys!

Here’s where we’re on the bonus round or coming up to the bonus round. I’m going to ask you five quick questions, you give me your answer, to them. Let me know when you’re ready.

Matt and Devin: Ready.

Joe Casabona: All right. What’s your favorite book?

Matt Cromwell: The physician.

Devin Walker: Pillars of the earth.

Joe Casabona: Nice. I have not heard of either of those.. I’m gonna check of those out. Man, what’s your favorite music?

Devin Walker: Emo.

Joe Casabona: Emo, nice.

Matt Cromwell: I’m gonna go with Funk.

Joe Casabona: Funk. Very nice.

Matt Cromwell: It’s either Funk or Jazz. It depends on what mood I’m in.

Joe Casabona: Nice. So I’m a big or was at least in high school a big emo listener. What’s your favorite band, Devin?

Devin Walker: Wow! That’s hard, I don’t know. Saves the day is a good band.

Joe Casabona: Saves the day, yes! I’m also gonna save the day after this.

Now, that’s why I ask these questions, I need ideas. For example, it’s around dinner time for me now, so what’s your favorite food?

Matt and Devin: Definitely Mexican.

Joe Casabona: Man, that is quickly becoming the most popular answer. Like tacos or just Mexican in general. I think we have a commonality in the WordPress space.

What’s your favorite sports team or who’s your favorite athlete?

Devin Walker: Arizona basketball and favorite athlete, Rickie Fowler.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Matt Cromwell: I gave up sports in order to have a family. But Tony Gwynn was always my big hero.

Joe Casabona: Tony Gwynn, very nice. Try San Diego guys, right? Cool, very cool.

In this last question, it’s hard for me to generalize this question so the way that I posted to myself was, if computers didn’t exist, what would I do as a profession? So if you guys couldn’t make plugins or do agency work or…what have you, what would you do for work?

Matt Cromwell: Teaching

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Devin Walker: Probably be in the military or something.

Joe Casabona: Wow! very nice, very nice. I like that.

I don’t know if I will give my entry on the show yet. So my entry is an animator which is not nearly as noble as teaching or joining the military.

Matt Cromwell: Can you do that without a computer anymore? Does anybody do it without a computer?

Joe Casabona: No. Nobody does. so I’d be an out of work animator. So, awesome!

Well guys, thank you so much for being on the show. I had a lot of fun today.

Matt Cromwell: Yeah, us too.

Devin Walker: Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

Joe Casabona: Fantastic! What we did was just a great conversation between a couple of really great guys. So thanks so much to Matt and Devin for being on the show.

And if you enjoyed the show, why don’t you head over to Apple podcasts, previously iTunes. I think they’re both kind of the same now. And leave a review and rating and let me know how I’m doing. And maybe I will even read your rating or review. I won’t read your rating, but I’ll read your review of the show on the air. And it’s a really great way for me to understand the listeners and what you like and what you don’t like. And it’s also a great way for people to discover the show.

So once again, thank you so much to my guests. Thank you for listening. Thanks to the sponsors, Liquidweb and Sitelock. Definitely check them out.

And until next time, get out there and build something.