Podcasting for Your Brand with Jeff Large

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Today, my guest is Jeff Large and we talk about one of my favorite topics, podcasting. Jeff is a professional podcaster. He does it for other brands so he doesn’t have his own. He is hired to help people set up podcasts, whether it be to promote their brand or game sponsors which he has some pretty strong opinions about. So we talked a bit about things that you could do with your podcasts that don’t necessarily make direct sponsor money. And we talk about what, we, like geeks out about hardware and stuff like that too. So it was a really really fun episode. I love geeking out about podcasting and Jeff is certainly the guy to do it with so I know you will love this episode. And without further ado, on with the show!

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I built It, the podcast that asks, “How did you build that?” Today, my guest is Jeff Large from Come Alive Creative. Jeff, how are you doing today?

Jeff Large: I’m well. You have that intro very polished. I was impressed.

Joe Casabona: Thank you very much! I think this is like the 50th episode I’m recording so I’ve had a lot of time to hash it out.

Jeff Large: Yeah, you got like a radio voice going.

Joe Casabona: Thank you very much! I’m also really good at talking like I was in drama club and stuff so just you know it comes a little naturally to me. But today we’re going to talk about Come Alive Creative. We were talking about that a little bit in our pre show discussion so I’m really excited to pick your brain a little bit. And why don’t we start off with who you are? What do you do? And how you came up with the idea?

Jeff Large: The idea of Come Alive in particular?

Joe Casabona: Yes.

Jeff Large: All right. I’m Jeff Large, like you just introduced me and I run an agency. We focus specifically on podcast strategy and production so we’re looking at it from a sense of actually producing really solid shows, original shows, and episodes series for brands. And it just happens to be a really great way to reach and connect with your audience like you probably already know doing your cast, and that’s where we’ve settled down. And what’s the other part of the question?

Joe Casabona: Who you are? What you do? And how you came up with the idea?

Jeff Large: Yeah, okay! So that’s the essence of what I do. For me in particular, just a guy, a guy with a dream, a family man, married with two kids. I used to be a teacher. I left that to start what was web dev, and graphic design agency, and that was about four years ago. And it’s molded now, and sort of changed itself over into the podcast thing that we’re talking about today.

Joe Casabona: Nice, yeah. so actually that was something really interesting that came out of the pre show that I would love to kind of parse out a little bit which is…you started as kind of a general freelancer, and then decided to niche or niche down to this kind of podcast strategy for brands. What was it, like how did you make that decision, right? Because it’s always really scary for a freelancer to be like, “I’m going to exclude a lot of people from my business and focus on just this.”

Jeff Large: Yeah, geez! It’s such an interesting topic too! It’s very counterintuitive to wanna niche down where I started to give a little more context, because I was a teacher, and my whole background is literature. And so it’s reading, writing, that type of thing. I taught middle school for a long time and then I taught K-8 technology for a while. After that and it was around my seven, 30th year getting a career, having career salary benefits, all that stuff that there’s several influencing factors.

Basically my wife and I decided it’s time to make the jump. And we talked about this, a pre show. This is always one of those fun things where people think like my work was outpacing my actual day job. And at the time I was doing development work, working primarily on WordPress and I had two graphic designers that worked with me. And we’re all kind of unofficial but we were doing these different jobs on the side. And at the time that I left, we only had one client and it was like this sort of ongoing month to month thing. It wasn’t an actual retainer, but I was getting like $35 an hour and we had about enough money in the bank to last this roughly six months. And we took sort of a stoic philosophy on the whole thing or like what is the worst case scenario that could happen? And it’s that we run out of money, and I go back to teaching. And I was like, “All right. let’s go for it.” And we started off very broad like you said, we started off with just it was me and the two graphic designers. And so we did web dev and graphic design over time, over those past years, like kind of the flow went from broad and I realized broad was bad. And so I niched down into E-commerce and ecommerce for about a year and a half, really focusing on just helping people with either selling physical products or digital products. So our team got expanded from them like even now the team that we’re running is probably about everybody’s freelance on the team but they’ve been very dedicated. I think the person that’s been with us the least amount of time is maybe like three or four years . And so we got about 5 or 6 people that are kind of core and then some other specialists and things that will tap into outside of that.

After E-com and then the growth in that sense, we started to round back out to just general marketing and dev because I personally like the marketing side a little more than doing the dev. There’s just too many of you people out there that are way better than me personally. And if my team would get hung up on other projects we just would have a threshold of what we could take on. And so to kind of get back to the original question, we finally got two points where I have a few business coaches that I work with and just kind of my own thinking about it, and praying about it, and analytics. That type of thing that we thought, “Well, let’s go all in at this point on podcasting.” And so we got about 2/3 of our services in terms of getting rid of the web and some of the other stuff we’re doing in the dev work.

And right now we’re still in the process, there was a few months ago, now still in the process. We have some clients that we’ve cut down just because we have ongoing maintenance contracts, and that type of thing. But for the most part we’re not marketing web dev anymore. I’m not really accepting any web dev unless it’s like a really special case or I know you personally or something. But for the most part, we killed the whole town of the business in order to focus on one area.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s wild! So you decided to go into podcasting and podcasts essentially for grants. What kind kind of research? You mentioned that you talked to business coaches and a couple of people. But what kind of research did you do to be like, “Hey, this is a good idea,” like “This is a viable business option.”

Jeff Large: Yeah. No, this is the fun stuff because, if you look at… I have this little more detailed on my about page on my website but if, have you ever taken the strengthsfinder tests? Are you familiar with that?

Joe Casabona: I feel like I did this very recently. I might have.

Jeff Large: If it’s strengthsfinder 2.0, there’s a couple different versions of it but basically it’s similar to a Myers Briggs or anything else and it gives you a few of your strengths. And one of mine..but what I end up being, what I end up rounding out too is, I think it plays into the fact that I was a teacher too, is that I love learning and I love teaching and so I’m usually collecting information from all over the place. And the first time that I even realized that this would work is actually in 2012’ish. There was a few years that I was cold running a board game publishing company with some friends of mine, with my wife, and actually my cousin, and we had dreams of being able to publish our own board game. I mean, unfortunately the audience can, but you can see all four games behind me.

Joe Casabona: I was just going to say, I was going to ask you specifically about that. So I’m glad you brought it up.

Jeff Large: Yeah. We have about like, 100 and something games or whatever that we were big board game fanatics and we wanted to make our own. It’s kind of like publishing a book to find a designer, you as the publisher go through, fix the game up, can take it out the distribution and everything. The main way that we marketed through, we wanted to give back to the board game community before we ever ask for anything. So we planned on using Kickstarter and some different things, and so we started a podcast.

And the podcast is all about the business of board games. And that’s if you wanted to look that up it’s just a happy man podcast. I think our last episode was last year in October and we really looked at every single facet of what is necessary to make a board game possible. The designers, graphic designers, illustrators, publishers, manufacturers, all of that stuff. And we just thought we were giving back to the community at the beginning. But what we figured out was a ton, a ton of stuff because on one hand we were learning everything that we needed to know as a business. On the other hand we’re able to… because by the fact that I have a podcast, I’m able to talk to people that normally would never want to talk to me. It’s all sudden this excuse like, “Oh, you got a podcast? Sweet! I’m sure I’ll have an interview with you”, like I mean we’re getting sort of like I’m sure like thousands of dollars of legal advice and some of our episodes all sorts of just crazy stuff. And beyond that, the community resonated with the community like we hit something, we hit a vein that people cared about. And by the time it was said and done, I mean the numbers aren’t a giant normous compared to like some of these business podcasts and stuff you listen to but for three of us, seriously just discussing board games and business, we ended with, I think 89 episodes and even right now we still have listenership. But we’ve broken over 100,000 listeners and I’ll sort downloads and that type of thing. And it was in that, that we realized through some of those experiences like, “This is legit!”, like doing podcasts is a real thing. And I had a background in audio before that anyways. So I was like, “Okay, this is kind of cool!” And we started playing around with Come Alive, and came about working on a podcast. From Alive started to offer it as a service for a few of our existing clients and some new clients and just kind of through those experiences. And then I began to research actually more like what other people are saying about it. Certain articles that type of thing, more on the higher level stuff of like how to use this or what are creative ways to use this because on one hand, you have the production of it. And I think you can get away with decent production and something that’s a little more easy to acquire. But to really understand taking my different strengths of caring about things like literature and writing a good story, creating a good narrative, and mixing that with good marketing practices. And then being able to create something that resonates with an audience for a brand and represents them well, like that’s kind of how we came to it, something that’s sort of a long answer.

Joe Casabona: But, no. I mean that’s great! So first of all, it’s very cool that you had a podcast about creating board games because I feel a lot of people I know, or maybe just me, maybe I’m projecting on to other people I know, but I would love to make a board game and have no idea where to start. I have an idea for a Cool of Realism Game almost like Cards Against Humanity. But I’m still neither here nor there. So I love this!

So you’ve mentioned that you have business cultures and business devices. But I really want to get into the meat and potatoes of the show, right? So I usually ask, “How did you build that?” and with the business, it’s one thing. So maybe what you could do is take us through like, what you do for a client. And then the other part of it which I’m assuming you knew was coming was, talk about the equipment that you use, right? You gave me a rundown before the show, so just talk a little bit about how you have a decent… having a decent setup is fine, what a really good setup looks like, things like that. So to recap that long rambling question, when you have a client how do you build out a solution for them, right? And then what’s a good podcast setup look like?

Jeff Large: Okay, I don’t want to answer in sales anyway. So I’m going to try to just give a more authentic answer. I don’t want this to sound like a pitch to your people.

So, let’s say, let’s pretend, I’m going to pretend you’re the client. So you came to me and before you made your podcast or whatever, there’s a few different ways to look at it. One of the most popular that people will see are just editing options, editing options with usually transcription, that type of thing. That’s an area that I don’t dabble in. There’s a lot of people that are able to do that and can actually get it done pretty cost effectively. It’s not something that we thought about at first of, including that as one of our services. But if all you need is editing we’re not the agency for you. Like you don’t want to work with us. We’d send you to somebody else that we trust that does a good job and is more affordable. What we’re really trying to focus on is basically like some of the positioning lines will use is like putting a voice behind your marketing.

And so there’s so many different ways to talk to your audience. And I think maybe my personal really big personal convictions are that people just don’t like ads anymore, traditional ads just work in my opinion, it’s ridiculous. We’re listening to the radio the other day and at least 14 times within an hour of listening to the radio on our car ride, they’re talking about. “this is ad free”. Let me tell you so much about how “Ad free” I am. Or you look at other avenues where it’s like these new sites are just dying to be able to put as many ads as they can and you get the next button where it’s just like, “Can I read the article please?” without different popups and like ad blocker users the numbers on that, and all this stuff. And so I just…it makes you step back and think, “Okay! How, instead of forcing my opinions on somebody or trying to slap him with these band rants and all this other unnecessary stuff, and how can I just become part of the conversation?” like “How can I enter into something that’s a little more real and authentic?” or and then even it’s just “How do I get there?” And for some reason, the story came to mind when I used to teach one of my favorite teaching methods. I hope this doesn’t sound dishonest or something, but one of my favorite teaching methods was to trick my kids. And so there is one lesson that I was notorious for was, I was the teacher that had a flip phone for years. Like at this point, smartphones were super cool, and all the hip kids were having all of them. I still have my old Alcatel flip phone. And I had one lesson in particular where the kids walked in and I looked really distressed. This is middle school so I was able to get away with it and I’m like, “Okay guys. I had this thing planned but I needed a new phone and I wanna do some research. Can we please…Can you help me? Like you guys know this way better than I do, or you help me pick out a phone?” And they’re like, looking at each other and I don’t know what they’re thinking. The whole lesson was about positioning, and how to write to a specific target market. And so we started looking at all these ads and I’m like, “What the heck is this phone for?” And we looked at the iPhone, and then we looked at the cricket and we looked at all these different phones. And they’re telling me exactly what I want them to know and what I want them to get in there like, writing different things for me. They had no idea about learning all these actual legit objectives, they were just like, “What is going on?” in a certain way if you do a podcast. Well it’s like that for the audience because you can take whatever your message is. Whatever it is you’re trying to convey, and you can make, and what you would have to pay. I don’t even know thousands of dollars for a radio ad or TV ad, or even like a podcast. I don’t even like ads on podcasts like there’s just smarter ways to do it .And so you can be part of the conversation, you can convey that message, you can really…whatever your goal is.

This is different based on your goals if you’re trying to be more authority building. If you just straight up need a way to make extra revenue, if you’re trying to create a certain aura around your brain, whatever it is, that’s the essence of what we’re looking at. So if you want that as a brand, then yes, talk to us. In terms of the specific services it’s anything from full production, like we’ll walk you through step by step, defining your goals, I’ve written about it in a lot of different places. I can give you some links to include in the notes. But the basics of it is defining the goals of the show and that’s going to dictate everything. Kind of a nutshell, you have three different main types of shows, you can have monologues, or it’s just a single person talking about whatever it is that topic happens to be. You can have interviews which are probably one of the most popular ones like we’re doing right now, you interview other people in that space that you want to be associated with, or you can have sort of like NPR story style that’s we’re looking at things like cereal or startup and where you have much more of a narrative. And so just depends on your goals and that type of thing of how you define what the show is.

And then it’s a matter of going through finding the content. It’ll be different based on which type of show that you want producing, editing, publishing, and getting it out there, I mean that’s sort of the nutshell. so we’ll do, like a full…very closely with you. If you just want to play around in it, we have sort of pre packaged seasons that focus more around the interview style. Maybe we’re just selling off like I can parcel it out pretty solid if you’re gonna get 5 hours of audio, so you’ll either get five 1 hour episodes or third or 10, 30 minute episodes and we just make you a season. We’ll do whatever, we’ll host it, we’ll do all the stuff. You don’t have to worry about it all. No hands on for you, and then we just give it to you and you distribute it how you want.

And then the last thing that we can offer is the aspect of actual consulting. And so we have a few companies that have come to us and they’re basically like, “We want to be able to do this.” And so on one hand, I could tell him no, but they’re just gonna go somewhere else anyways and figure it out. So we’ve actually built it into a service that we’re walking through and teaching them exactly what we do through tutorials, and through actual one on one time. And those are more like retainer based couple months at a time. so I mean that’s the essence of what we do in the options I would give you.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. Now before we get to the second half of that question, I have a couple of follow-ups, right? Because this podcast is obviously sponsored. I would put them in right here, but not sure we’re recording this before I have them set and that’s the main way that this podcast makes money for me right? I started it as kind of a way to associate with my online courses and it just kind of took on a life of its own right? So like, if I were to go back and do a podcast for my brand, I would probably create a new one for WP in one month that has no ads. That just is kind of value added stuff but what you’re talking about is value ads for a podcast that doesn’t have like a direct dollar amount associated with it, right? Like I can tell you my podcast makes an extra amount of dollars in 2016. But what you’re talking about is content that is…that provides some sort of educational value for a business, right?

Jeff Large: Well, I guess let me clarify. There is, if you go to our site I have one article that I recently wrote about ROI and how to determine ROI. And I’m sure there’s more, constantly there’s a couple podcasts groups I’m a part of. And I was picking their brains, I sort of looked at the stuff I’m doing and there’s several difference., I’ll see 9 at the moment because anytime you put numbers in your blog titles, it’s always going to get better.

So right now, these are the ways that I would determine or could determine if a podcast was successful. One would be the number of listeners or downloads, or looking at your reach or impressions. It could be sponsorship or add revenue like you’re talking about. It might be podcast reviews that try to slip by if it’s working or not, if you’re getting a bunch of solid reviews in iTunes. Other than that, you need to look at other things, like traffic and conversions, and so how are those specific pages performing? How many people are there, are they clicking through on the stuff there on those particular pages, that kind of thing. How much engagement you’re getting there, it could be email signups, open rates. So if you’re sending out newsletters to your list of “Hey, this new episodes up!” and those happen to have way more click throughs on the other ones, you can see that they are interested in that. Or it could be specific options that you’re putting on the podcast post pages. Maybe you have something relevant that you’re giving away whatever it is. Like I said stuff I could give you that we could share with your audience or whatever. And it could just be like, “Hey if you opt in, Jeff has this free gift for you”, type of the thing. It could be networking and referrals just the people that you’re able to associate with and talk to and kind of move up the ladder in that way, build your network. I think beyond networking it could be true relationships, like we have a really solid relationship. Or we’re building a small community in South Africa right now, and it all started with one of the guys. That is…he was one of my business mentors who found us through the board game podcast. And he is Rich Mahan, and he’s really solid. He’s about twenty year old, it’s his company’s missing link and he speaks a lot around the world. He’s definitely a force to be reckoned with in South Africa. And he’s continuing to grow in that sense. He works with a lot of the higher end businesses helping people basically not suck at public speaking. And so through that make it legitimate, like my wife and I purposely drove down to Chicago about two years ago to hang out with him for the day because he was in the States. And it started off, it’s just a conversation over social and we have a genuine friendship where we check in every month and that type of thing, and he opened me up to a lot of other people in his network.

And then the last two would be like, being able to repurpose content. Podcasting is amazing for being able to take a specific piece of content and reuse it multiple times, and really sort of stretch your marketing dollar in that sense. Or like the other thing, you commented on just straight learning, like you’re making education for not only yourself but your audience like more importantly, your audience.

So those are the ways that I would walk through with a business if it’s working or not. And so it doesn’t necessarily have to be “I put in a dollar, I got back $2”, like there could be things, there’s things that the podcasts we’ve created that have been priceless compared to any sort of “I got a $2 return on this thing”, so.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean…and again I can say the same thing about this podcast, right? I was very active in the WordPress community. Anyway that’s how I got my first few guests but I feel like the podcast is taking me to a kind of different level of involvement and connection. And I’m like, you said I’m talking to people who I would not have otherwise spoken to because of the podcast. So there’s a lot of value in it, you know? Even on episodes that didn’t get any sponsors, those still provide a ton of value because of that, especially because I’m asking people how they build their business. And that’s valuable just to me, like, I can just take that information. It could be a private call and I can apply that stuff to my business.

So we’ve talked a lot about your business and kind of how it evolves. So maybe we can talk about what your plans for the future are? And then as a follow up, if somebody wants to get into podcasting today, what’s the main advice you have for them?

Jeff Large: Cool, okay. Did you…the short answer…so I don’t miss the one you asked also about the equipment? The easiest thing to do is just go to the show notes, there’s a lot of different ways to approach it that can be as simple as possible.

If you want to get started it’s really easy to record audio like you can start honestly with just your phone and record it that way, and then pull it on to your computer. But the easiest thing for you to do, I would just check out equipment for podcasting.com because I have a lot of people asking me that. Like what equipment should I buy to get started? And I got sick of answering it, so that’s just the website that I send everybody to. And I have like a nine course email thing, that you can get and it’ll just tell you exactly what I do. In A nutshell, I landed in the hardware camp. I would rather have my hardware take care of all my pre production which is before the audio hits the actual program and editing and things. I’d rather clean up as much in the front-end to save me time and post production which would be editing after the fact. And I definitely argue for, a lot of people record straight to their computers, I would argue for a digital recorder. You’re going to get more reliable in terms of…I’ve never, I’ve had friends that record like into Grudge Manor audacity or whatever, and then all the sudden the computer flakes out, and the episodes are gone. Or it’s just like…could you imagine interviewing your hero and all of a sudden the interviews just died after the fact? Or like there’s a terrible electronic home because you’re…there is a background on your computer, whatever. So I always record straight to it on a digital recorder, doing different things like mix minus. There’s more technical things but you just have all your SD cards, never gonna die. Like I’ve had mine for several years now and you might need to find a new one later but you’re never gonna have a corrupt file doing it that way. And then I just take the file over and bring it in and start editing. And so that’s kind of my philosophy. Not everybody agrees. There’s a lot of people that say record straight on the computer and make it simple and all this stuff. But it’s a balance between quality and a good story. So I don’t mind putting in a little bit of money up front to make sure that my hardware handles what I need to do.

Joe Casabona: Nice, very nice. Cool. So that is great advice. In the bonus part of this episode which is going to be available to Patreons subscribers, I am going to ask Jeff about what the minimum quality for a podcast is? So that’s a little teaser. But right now, let’s get to the end of the main interview. So what are your plans for the future?

Jeff Large: Plans for the future? I spent a lot of time planning and planning and only goes so far. I look at even…I got a podcast that will probably be live by the time your episode goes live. And that started off as one thing. Literally sat on the completely finished ready to publish episodes for like over a year, and I’m getting around to it now. I’ve already repositioned it and all this stuff and it’s because I had these plans but other things to prioritize. Anybody that works on a business knows like there’s just a lot to do and you can only go so far. So I think that the immediate stuff that comes to mind is to just move faster than I’m comfortable doing. I tend to be a planner and so I’m actually trying to be the antithesis of that. But the big thing is like right now it’s working right now. All our foundation is laid and it’s growing well and so I just want to be able to prove team up with…I want to seem up with businesses that get it like there’s a lot of really great businesses out there, and brands out there that understand the power of digital and understand the power of tech. And also still get that there needs to be a human connection. And for me, podcasting is that, like it’s a way to bridge the gap between the two. And so as long as I get to and my team gets to build more podcasts and create good audio with fun people like at the end of the day, I’m happy. That’s what it’s going to come down to.

Joe Casabona: And then the follow up question to that was, “If somebody wants to get into podcasting today, what would you recommend?” it’s like the one piece of advice that you would give them?

Jeff Large: Is that the question you gave me was that the last one?

Joe Casabona: The last one is “Do you have any trade secrets?” So if there is…if this can be combined with the trade secret, then that’s even better.

Jeff Large: Yeah, let’s combine him. I was kind of accountable for how much I have to talk.

Joe Casabona: It makes my job a lot easier so I appreciate it.

Jeff Large: No, I was gonna say I’ll roll them together and figure it out there. The advice if anybody tells you that podcasting is easy, I think they’re a liar. Recording audio is easy but creating a podcast that’s worth listening to is not. It takes a lot of work. You can listen to any of the creators of really solid podcasts. I just heard his name is blanking me so I apologize but the host of Lore, if you’re familiar with that?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, Mahnke.

Jeff Large: Yeah, yeah. He’s got solid stuff. And he was talking about this just on social the other day about how hard it is to write solid episodes. And I mean you’re essentially creating sitcoms or stories or books on a regular basis if you’re doing it well. So be leery of anybody that says it’s easy. Beyond that, the other piece that I get frustrated with is there’s a lot of people out there that just don’t know what they’re talking about. And I don’t want to come off Ivy Tower or anything, but to have…we’ve got fifteen years of experience in audio and then another like 4 or 5 in podcasting, there’s really good advice out there and there’s not really good advice out there as well. And it’s kind of hard when you’re starting to filter through that. So I’ll just honestly say if you have any questions please reach out, you can reach out to me at jeff@comealivecreative.com. I’ve written a lot because we’ve contributed to OS trainings, we’ve contributed to GoDaddy, we have our own sites, there’s a lot of content on my personal site, there’s more strategic stuff on the Come Alive site. But the biggest thing is like there’s a ton of stuff you can research and ways to do it well but I would just recommend, go for it. Just get started with something and figure out whatever it is you need to do to take that first step. And then once you take that first step just go what’s my next step. and if it’s something you’re serious about, then go for it like there’s no reason not to. And as you go, and as you shift, and as you do these different things like you’re going to learn what the next thing is, that you need. So I just say research as much as you can. But for the most part I just always ask, what is the next best step I can take and go for it.

Joe Casabona: What a fantastic advice to end this episode on.

If you are enjoying it though, we have a Part 2 of bonus over at patreon.com/howibuilt so you can continue the conversation over there. Jeff offers a lot of really great advice. You might tell that I had some technical difficulties with my mic during the interview compared to the way I’m talking now so I’m definitely going to have to take some of that advice moving forward.

I want to thank our sponsors Liquid web, who’s been a season long sponsor of the show would not have been able to happen, really, frankly without them. So definitely check out the offer that they have for listeners over at buildpodcast.net/liquid.

And thank you to Prospress who’s been a sponsor for a while as well. They have job openings so you should go work for Prospress at builtpodcast.net/prospress.

So thanks again so much! And until next time, get out there and build something.