Keeping Your Website Secure with Neill Feather and SiteLock

How I Built It
How I Built It
Keeping Your Website Secure with Neill Feather and SiteLock
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Sponsored by:

Neill is the President of SiteLock, and has spent a lot of time building a successful company. They are not only good at what they do, but deeply dedicated to the community. In this episode, we talk all about security for your website, who’s most at risk, and what can happen if you ignore simple site security. Of-course, we also talk about prevention.

Show Notes

Transcript

Joe Casabona: This episode of How I Built It, is brought to you by two great sponsors. The first, is our season-long sponsor. Liquid Web has been best known as a managed hosting company with tons of options. It’s also designed a managed WordPress offering that is perfect for mission-critical sites. If you’re looking for improved performance, maximized uptimes, and incredible support, Liquid web is the partner you’ve been looking for. Every liquid web managed WordPress customer has ithemes synced integrated into their managed portal allowing them to update several sites with a single touch. Liquid web hosts all of my critical websites and I couldn’t be happier with them. If you Sign up today, using the discount code ‘howibuiltit33’, you get 33% off for the next six months. Visit buildpodcast.net/liquid to get started. That’s buildpodcast.net/liquid.  

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Today, I got to talk to Neill Feather of Sitelock. Sitelock has been a great supporter of the show and I really enjoy the stuff that we got to talk about. We focus primarily on security surprisingly, as Sitelock focuses on that. And it’s not just the technical aspects of security, it’s about educating yourself and really protecting your website from the outside in. Neil also shares some pretty interesting stats about how a security breach can truly ruin a small business. So I’ll just let him kinda get into that stuff. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. I made a very timely home-alone reference, it’s timely now. It was now I made the reference. So without any further ado, on with the show!

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks “How did you build that?”. Today, my guest is Neill Feather, president of Sitelock, who is one of our podcast sponsors. So I’m very happy to have him on the show, to talk a little bit about Sitelock. Neil, how are you doing today?

Neill Feather: I’m doing great. Thanks! How are you, Joe? Thanks for having me.

Joe Casabona:I am fantastic. And again, thanks for being on the show. So why don’t we start off with a little bit about who you are? And what you do? And how you get the idea for Sitelock?

Neill Feather: Yeah, so I’m a co-founder and president of Sitelock. So I’ve been here since the beginning, you know we found it, this business in 2008. Before that, I spent time in various different capacities but always around large datasets and doing a lot with analytics and predictive analytics and that’s something that we’ve carried through in the Sitelock. A lot of what we do is based on the data that we’re able to collect around the, you know, now 12 million websites that we are protecting. You know, we use that data to help build our thread librarian and help protect our customers. So what we do at Sitelock is we have a suite of products that help website owners keep their sites safe for their visitors. So you know we offer a variety of different products from malware, identification of removal, vulnerability management, web application firewall, all those kinds of things to help ensure a safe and fast experience for users. So as far as the idea for Sitelock really came to us from the time you know, we recognize that there was a bit of a gap in terms of what was offered to business owners who were looking to, you know, build an online presence. Where there was at the time was there a lot of security products available for large businesses, enterprises, and folks like that. But you know they were expensive, they didn’t really work in environments where it was a multi-tenant. So maybe in shared hosting kind of environments, there will be very heavy products that would take down websites that sort of thing. So we needed to build something that was not the only kind of affordable but also approachable for these small, small-medium size business folks. And that’s the kind of idea and the reason that we built Sitelock was that we wanted to build enterprise-level security for small and medium-sized businesses. So you know that means to us building a cost-effective product as well as addressing the real issues that small medium-sized businesses face which you know are quite different from those that large businesses may encounter. In addition to that, we wanted to make sure that we’re always backing that up with a team of folks that you could talk to. So that’s what we do 24/7 support here in the US for all of our customers no matter what size of the business, you know we’re happy to help them out. You know we recognize that not all small business owners have a ton of security expertise where they’re not comfortable and they want to talk to someone so we want to get what I gave them as well. So that was a little bit of the need that we sent out there in the market. You know back in 2008, 2009 time frame and that’s kind of what drove us to build this company.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha. And so I know you primarily from the WordPress community but you don’t just focus on WordPress sites, does that right?

Neill Feather: Yeah, so the way that we build our platform is it’s all cloud-based. So it’s really platforming agnostic. Now, that said, we support about 4 million WordPress websites so you know we definitely have a commitment to it and you know we have a strong partnership with that community. But if you’re using a different builder or a different platform there’s no limitation from a technology standpoint.

Joe Casabona: Gotcha, very cool. So you said you came from a background of predictive analytics, a lot of data, and things like that. As far as kind of a security background goes, were you strong in that background? Or did you…what kind of research did you do before and while starting Sitelock.

Neill Feather: Yeah, so I also did a lot of research and also teamed up with folks who have been doing security for you know, their profession so you know our other co-founder had a good amount of background in website security. So you know I was kind of utilizing a lot of his knowledge in that space as well so you know that help end of solidifying the security, and the knowledge of the team. They did a ton of research you know just on the Internet picking the brains of folks who have been or run small business websites and kind of understand some of the concerns, issues that those folks face regarding the security of their websites. And you know that input is really important in terms of helping us solve real problems for our folks. You know, if you talk to the kind of enterprise-type security people they tend to be focused on a different set of problems around the endpoint, around maybe network security, that sort of thing. But we were really focused on you know for small businesses, a lot of their IT investment, you know especially these days with so much happening in the cloud tends to be largely around their website. Maybe the only IT assets that they really own and have invested in, right? Because they’re using maybe Salesforce from CRM or Zendesk for support or some Google you know for office productivity that sort of thing. They don’t really own infrastructure anymore but the one thing that they own tends to be that website. And they probably invested in that and that’s why we wanted to focus on that because we know enterprises still do own a lot of infrastructures and they’re focused on securing that infrastructure whereas small and medium-sized businesses may be one of the biggest kind of IT assets, certainly a most visible website that’s why we chose to focus there.

Joe Casabona: Man, that’s a really great point and it’s tough to almost convince somebody right? That security is really important. They might not spend the money that they want to spend on making sure, for example, their WordPress site is up to date or things like that. Is that right? So what kind of hurdles do you try to overcome with convincing people security is important?

Neill Feather: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we face is especially with the small and medium-sized businesses in this kind of feeling that it’s not going to happen to me, right? And we tend to be a little bit…people kind of estimate risk based on what happens to people they see like them, right? So when we see anthem healthcare get breached and Sony and HBO and huge companies get breached, it tends to make small-medium size businesses feel even more secure that they’re not going to be the target of these attacks. But the reality is you know 80% or more of attacks are aimed at organizations with 100 or fewer employees. And you know from a cyber criminal’s perspective they’re very much low-hanging fruit on the Internet, right? They aren’t maybe protecting themselves, they lack some of the tools and capabilities. So our base kind of push is to start educating people that really, there’s no such thing as too small to hack. And every website has something that’s of value to a cybercriminal and it has a very well-defined value for them. Whether that be you know your visitor data, the visitor themselves who can be redirected to malicious locations on the Internet whether that be SEO backlinking juice that you can give to third parties unwittingly. So every website is something of value and you know the kind of approach that the cybercriminals take because they are financially motivated is how do I get the most return on my investment for the least amount of effort, right? And if that means you’re writing a bot because others compromise 1000 WordPress sites or Joomla sites or Triple sites that all have the same vulnerability. I don’t really care what the business is behind them but I know that I’m going to be able to generate dollars for myself out of the control of those sites, right? Including maybe launching additional attacks on other unsuspecting sites. So that’s kind of the education process that we’re trying to go through with our customers. And we’re hoping that people do, if you know, accept that you know kind of get that knowledge ahead of time so that they could be more proactive. It’s always more efficient, less expensive to prevent a problem than it is to come back and try to reactivate later. And in fact, for small businesses over 60% of small businesses that get breached are out of business than the first six months after a breach. So you know, the impact for small businesses is really pretty consequential. So we really want to try to do our best to educate people upfront.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, so I had an analogy but I want that last point to land again. Over 60% of businesses are out of business in six months after a breach.

Neill Feather: Yeah, I mean it makes sense when you think about it right because there’s a lot of research out there that talks about the impact to enterprises and breaches, and it is right? It’s very expensive and can be very costly but when you’re at Home Depot or Target and you get breached there are a couple of things that can happen. One, you have a lot of cash on hand that you can pay for the cost of a breach right? That’s not the case for a lot of small businesses right? There, they’re kind of very focused on making payroll and that sort of thing right? So if you miss a couple of weeks or months of revenue, that’s gonna really significantly impact her ability to pay the bills right? The other thing you know is 2/3 of website customers say they won’t come back to a site that has been breached before. And that is you know I think pretty impactfully on smaller businesses because there are a lot of alternatives out there, right? If the target gets breached you might still go back to target because what choice do you have, right? For a small business that’s not really the case, right? There are a lot of choices out there and people are pretty happy to make those trade-offs or it’s easier for them to make those trade-offs. So you know I think that in some sense you hear a lot about the cost of cyber breaches and that’s focused around enterprises and the cost per record and that sort of thing. But what’s got lost in that, you know for small businesses the difference between being a thriving business is implying maybe dozens of employees one day being out of business in six months maybe that security element. And you know when you think about that, the assets and investments are pretty small.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely! And so there’s a lot of great things to parse out here right? and the first is that you know smaller businesses are like low-hanging fruit right? It’s like if somebody’s probably not gonna rob a mansion right? Because they likely have the security in place, they’ve got the gate, they’ve got dogs if you watch a lot of movies and things like that. But you know you might have more of them like the burglars from Home Alone that are getting put on vacation or away for the holidays right? Cause that’s easier and less like they’re gonna be secured. And man, I feel like that last one is crazy and makes perfect sense because the cost of recovering from a breach is a lot greater, you know, it’s like getting insurance.

Neill Feather: Yeah, it’s the cost of recovering that you know, you have to spend on not only a technical solution to it but think about the reputation and all kinds of impact of that to a small business as well. And I think that’s really where it’s a lot harder to calculate that cost. But it comes very real in terms of potentially lost revenue for those businesses.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, I mean especially if you’re a small shop right? If you’re running woo commerce or something like that, if you’ve been breached, I’m not going to give you my credit card information like I just…it’s…I can’t just trust you anymore. So that’s a really great point.

Neill Feather: Yeah, I think that the consumers are becoming more aware of that too, right? They’re being notified by their credit card companies when this stuff happens and they’re able to make better decisions about how to share their personal data online. There’s a lot more awareness on the consumer level. You know that you have this kind of interesting dynamic where you know people think about it for themselves as consumers and enterprises are very much aware of it. But you know the same people are thinking about it themselves for consumers kind of you know, I won’t say forget but don’t apply the level of caution to maybe this small business that they’re starting you know that they’re running. So, you know there’s a little bit of a disconnect there that we’re trying to bridge the gap on.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. That’s fantastic! So we are…I guess we are about halfway through at this point. So why don’t we talk a little bit about…Let’s first talk about the services that Sitelock offers, right? Because I know you have tons, like, or a dozen or so on the panel that I log into. And then how you guys built that? Like what did you start with? And how did the product evolve over time?

Neill Feather: Sure, yeah. So products from a Sitelock perspective, we offer everything from malware scanning, we offer an automated remediation tool called smart that will automatically clean up malware for folks who have you know been breached we do vulnerability management so we can identify and help remediate vulnerabilities on your website or weak spots on your website. We offer a CD end to help accelerate the performance of your website and mitigate denial of service type of tax or row web application firewall that helps really block attacks proactively. And lastly certainly not least we recently also acquired a business involved patch man which is really focused on toward the infrastructure providers hosting the needs, that sort of thing. If you own your VPN or you own the dedicated server that will help you stayed on the latest patches for CMS is like WordPress so that you know one headache of updating all the time is kind of taken away by an automated measure that you know it’s just kind of running in the background on the server keeps that stuff when vulnerabilities are identified and the patches that on the fly for you. So that’s you know, only a few couple of months old but something that we’re very about.

Joe Casabona: That’s great! And so it seems like you offer things from the inside out and from the outside end right? I interviewed Dre Armeda from security at the beginning of 2017 and he talked about you know that’s maybe the biggest unrealized vulnerability, right? It’s like you can do all these things inside WordPress or Drupal or Joomla to secure your site but you know if the front door is open, the people are going to lock it, right?

Neill Feather: Yeah, I think that’s right you know and that’s kind of why we’ve been addressing it on multiple fronts right? so we do most of what we do in the cloud so that we’re kind of a layer to remove from you know, the actual installation of a CMS, right? So if you’re doing plugin-based security that’s great you got a good first step but you know you’re still kind of reliant on the environment that you’re in right? So there, within that environment, if that gets compromised you’re also kind of compromised a little bit there you know? There are steps you can take to mitigate that but that’s one of the reasons that we chose to be outside of that we’re protecting the web application from outside of the web application if you will and that’s in both sides so whether we’re doing it with the cloud-based model or the traditional sidelock products or whether in an agent-based model is running on the server in traditional kind of Patchman model doing that at a level of abstractions so that we’re able to operate and not be subject the same type of compromise that happened to the websites generally.

Joe Casabona: That’s fantastic. And again, I feel like I’m throwing a lot of pop culture references out here but you said that it reminded me of a line from the Hamilton musical. If there’s a fire you can’t put it out from inside the house, right? And so you’re taking yourself from outside the house to protect it.

Neill Feather: Yeah, that’s a great analogy. I’m going to use that.

Joe Casabona: So as far as…So you have a great list of services here. So how did you build it? and this could be like you know, what decisions you make or from a technical level or you know you said your backgrounds and kind of analytics so you know, are you making data-driven decisions things like that. So whatever you’re most comfortable with answering this question.

Neill Feather: Sure, yeah. I mean thankfully for our customers I wasn’t the one doing the technical build-out of much smarter being on that. But you know from thinking about how we can put products together, you know we started what’s going to be the kind of enter a lot of customers? how can we get some help get them started with security and that’s where we started with our scanning, right? Because for two reasons, one is that we can do that every 0:19?28.2and can take advantage of and can make it vibrate right? Also, is it something that every website wants to be aware of right? so if something happens and you have evidence of malware on your site you definitely want to be aware of that. So that’s kind of where we started then you know, we built out from there which was…”Hey, it’s great to hear you guys don’t have malware. How do I get rid of it?” So we built tools to do that manually and then using the database kind of analytical approach. We were able to build tools to automate that and we could really start doing that at scale so you know as you start scaling up from million, 3 million, 6 million customers. You really need to start heavily automating things so that you know you just threw the volume as well and use the data that you’re going to accumulate. It makes your decision and helps drive down prices for customers right ultimately. So that ended the approach that we took on that and then we layered on additional functionality in terms of you know the vulnerability management, more preventative solution, and then you know kind of bring it full circle with the agent-based solution for larger websites or hosted environments so we’re selling directly the host. And the reason that we’re doing it that way is to look… if all business owners have to worry about right? There’s a lot for them to think about and where their passion lies is almost certainly not in securing their website right? So we want to make it easy for them. 6We want to give them one place that they can go to get all of these answers, get all these solutions so they’re not managing multiple dashboards, passwords, alerts systems. all that sort of thing right? So we want to make this as easy as possible and be a one-stop-shop for securing your website and that’s kind of how we went about building Sitelock in blocks right? So we started with that malware piece, moved to honorability, moved to a more proactive thing, and now the end of bringing it full circle so where we can actually work on the surface itself. So that’s kind of the idea that we’ve been driving for the last you know eight or nine years and you know the idea that we can be that trusted partner so that small businesses can really outsource what promotes them is a headache which is security.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, and that’s great! And I used to…when I did freelance work I mean that was not something I ever wanted to do either right? I would try to sell people on the preventative measures but more than once it took a site getting compromised for them to finally take the preventive package right? So when I might charge you know 300 bucks a year for just light or employing some other service right? Like something to automatically back up, something to onshore the scan and it might cost 6 or 700 bucks for me to find the malware, clean it, test it, monitor the site, make sure…That’s not what I want to spend my time doing, right? And you guys can automate that and that’s way better for everybody involved.

Neill Feather: Yeah, I think that’s one of the things we work with a lot of design agencies and freelancers that you know want to be able to deliver a product to their customers that they can stand behind you know and everyone knows you know it’s secure and it’s great when you build it you know the next day who knows what’s going to happen right new vulnerabilities are really things happen right? so it gives you the opportunity to not only continue that relationship with customers by providing them service ongoing but also you know provided an ongoing revenue stream for you know kind of the maintenance agreement. And security is part of that design updates are part of that but you want to build that longer-term relationship with customers so it’s not like a one and done, right? Where you drop this stuff and then you know let me know when you need me. Again you can start building that longer-term relationship both from a business perspective as well as from you know just networking and relate standpoint you want that you know ongoing touchpoint with customers and you know there are a lot of ways to do that we think security is a great one because you know you can help provide a real value to your customers and prevent some of the issues that they may see their colleagues experiencing out there and start to see that value and you know you as an agency or freelancer are delivering for them.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it shows that you care, you know? I could build a site for… I don’t know, a 1000 bucks using the same template in the page builder and no thought whatsoever, and build it in a couple of hours and give it to you and say Goodluck, right? Or I could build a site for 10 times that and be happily invested in it and say, “Hey, I care about your business. I’m building this tool to help your business. And the next step is making sure that your business stays secure.” And from what I’ve seen, you know, I’m a user of your product and everything you’ve talked about today, Sitelock is a great partner to help me be an advocate for my clients you know if I was freelancing.

Neill Feather: Oh, that’s great! Thanks for that compliment. I think that’s exactly what we want to be is, you know, whether it was the business using our product or the design agency or whatever, we want to be that security partner, you know, like I said there are, most small business owners are not going to be security experts. So we want them to be able to kind of, you know, leverage the skills. That’s all we think about right? We usually sleep in and breathe this stuff. So you know use our team, let us help you with that and you can do what you’re passionate about which is running a small business right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. So if I were trying to convince a client right? I feel like the easy route to take as far as trying to convince them to do a security package is like scare tactics right? But that’s not maybe the best thing to do. How would you recommend “I sell security to my clients?”

Neill Feather: Yeah, I mean the way we try to position it with customers is to think of it as an investment right? You know, you don’t want to scare people but last I think it’s just bringing it’s kind of bringing those facts out and helping educate people around those facts you know? The intent is not to scare folks but it is to educate and make them aware of what that investment really means and what it’s saving them down the line, right? So you know just like you would buy you know insurance for the business or insurance for your liability is health care whatever you think of it as an insurance policy for your website is going to help keep you safe from those kinds of breaches that sort of thing is one way to position, you know. Another way to position it is as you know kind of maintenance cost of building a website is you’ve got to keep this product features up-to-date, you gotta keep you know aware of new vulnerabilities as they come out you know if anything goes wrong you want to be able to clean it up very quickly so you know it’s almost an ongoing cost of owning a website is another way to think about it especially from a design agency perspective who worked with maintenance contracts and that sort of thing you know it’s kind of an opportunity to kind of bat in. Or you know pictures to customers as you know, here’s our security product that you need to make sure that the product that we make is exactly as safe and as fast and you know as reliable as the day we built it.

Joe Casabona: Absolutely, that sounds fantastic! And it…you know, relating it to the kind of everyday things you have car insurance, you get your car inspected at least once a year. Why wouldn’t you do the same thing for…perhaps the main thing that’s driving business to you right? I think it’s fair to say that no matter what business you’re in, your website is an integral part of that. If you’re a restaurant, you’re going to have your number, your menu, direction, and show up on Google. If you’re a contractor you need to have a website now to put in beads for projects and stuff like that.

Neill Feather: It’s our customers who find you. It’s your brand online, right?

Joe Casabona: Right, exactly. So awesome! Well, we’re coming up on time and I have two questions. What are your plans for the future? For reference, we are recording this in the middle of August. Smack dab in the middle of August, it’s coming out in…you know 6 to 8 weeks from today. So what can people look for in Sitelock in the near future?

Neill Feather: So one thing that we’re pretty excited about especially pertaining to WordPress is we’re launching a product that will help you clean and remove spam from your database. You know one of the kinds of constant plagues of owning a dynamic website is that people will put a bunch of garbage into your database that then shows up as spammy comments and other things. So we’ve launched an In Beta right now in August. But by the time this project should be a live cleaning product that helps website owners kind of manage to remove junk out of their database and you know preserve good comments so that their users are having a more realistic experience. Our website is in a very cleaner safe experience too because a lot of people will try to in shower there in an easy way. So you know we’re launching now, we’re excited about it. In addition to that, you know, we’re going to be rolling out here probably by the time this launches the ability to patch outdated versions of WordPress on the fly. So you know, if you’re running an outdated version you know we don’t upgrade it we just patch it so that it doesn’t break any functionality and that’ll be something that we can run through at Sitelock as well with our integration with the Patch man suite of products into the Sitelocks suite. You know a lot of good news there and you have some exciting stuff where you know thinking is going to make a difference for website owners in terms of the simplicity and the convenience of managing the site.

Joe Casabona: That’s fantastic. And I have a quick story about the spam so you guys don’t see the video but Neil and I are on a video chat and he saw me smirk when he said that because I wrote a blog post a couple of months ago, called ‘How to remove 3 million spam comments from your database using WP CLI”. So when I was at Crowd Favorite, we had an agency or if they aren’t an agency, we have a client that had 3 million spam comments in their database. You can’t just go to spam and clear it all if you have 3 million comments because it’s going to crash everything. I got the Pippins plugin and I tried that and it would have taken days. I tried doing it just through like other avenues and WP CLI and like a custom query for the database is what finally did it for me and it took me probably about…I want to say about 12 to 16 hours from the time we discovered 3 million spam comments to a working solution. So I will link that blog post in the show notes but, reading spam comments is no joke if you get a lot like 12 to 16 hours at $125 billable is a lot of money.

Neill Feather: Yeah, sure. And you know the other thing is up for a lot of our customers you know they’re not able to… it’s great that you can use the WP CLI to do that but most folks are not going to do that right? So right they can work through that is something that we think is important for a lot of site owners so you know we’re excited about it.

Joe Casabona: That’s fantastic. So that’s great and I’m looking forward to both of those things in the near future. And so the last question, my favorite question to ask is, “Do you have any trade secrets for us?”

Neill Feather: If I told you, it wouldn’t be a secret. You know, I think one of the things that you know we talked and you know we’ve learned you know as far as we talked about security so we’ll take it may be a different tack about running you know small business. And one of the things that we learned from our own mistakes, that maybe we can prevent someone else from making the same mistake, is to think really hard about hiring and building a culture right? And one of the things that we experienced as we were growing is you know we had built what we thought was we still believe is a great culture and we’re bringing. That culture is based on you know being fast making decisions quickly, and rapid changes. So we’re bringing new employees in, we had people with great backgrounds coming in you know from big companies and that sort of thing and what people realize pretty quickly was at some of that stuff sounds great to people when they’re kind of starting and they want to be part of a more dynamic culture and that sort of thing. But you know to really kind of higher for the culture that you’re building you know and I think that we learn from our mistakes that we need to be much more upfront and much more clear about what working here is really like and you know for some people very exciting and very energizing for some people it’s terrifying, right? I tell people you know when you come in the morning, don’t expect to finish the day the way you thought you were going to write. So you think you gonna do these ten things on a day, you’re probably going to get one of those done and twelve other things right as the day goes by because that’s kind of the environment that we operate in but we want to be very clear with people about that and I think that’s something that you know as you’re building a business building especially a startup you know it’s very important to be cognizant of the types of employees are bringing and how they’re going to add to your culture.

Joe Casabona: That’s fantastic advice. And we don’t get a whole lot of hiring advice on the show so, really glad to have that. As an employee I know I’m very appreciative. When I got the job at Crowd Favorite three years ago, Kareem was very upfront with me about, “Hey, this is…”, I was coming from higher Ed “Hey, this is not higher ed, you know it’s not an 8-4 job. This is agency life. You might have to work longer, certain days and it’s higher stress.” And I was like, “Yeah, I’m ready for it.” So, it’s great to absolutely be upfront with the people you’re hiring otherwise you’ll lose money.

Neill Feather: Yeah, and it’s just disappointing on both sides right? ’cause you want to set clear expectations and it’s super important. And I think for us what we learned is you know just that level of clarity and you know really being very thoughtful about culture fit.

Joe Casabona: That’s fantastic. Well, Neil, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate the time.

Neill Feather: Yeah, thank you, Joe! It’s great to talk to you.

Joe Casabona: Just a great conversation with a great guy. I really enjoyed that! I love his trade secrets about hiring. That’s really important!

So thanks again to Neil, first time. Thanks to you, the listeners, and of course thanks to our sponsors. Liquid web has sponsored this entire season. Honestly, the podcast wouldn’t be where it is without them. So absolutely check out the amazing hosting they have, it’s very secure, go to buildpodcast.net/liquid. And thanks to our new sponsor LifterLMS, I know the guys at Lifter, they are absolutely fantastic! We interviewed Chris Badgett earlier in this season and they’re just really doing great work. So if you need to get an online course, set up quickly, head on over to buildpodcast.net/lifter and you’ll get a little discount. So thanks so much to both of them.

If you enjoyed the show, I would love a rating and a review at the Apple podcast. That’s how I get better, it’s how people discover the show. And as we close out Season Three and heading to Season Four, those ratings and reviews are going to be even more important right? Because I’m making changes for the show now.

And finally, I’m linking in the show notes a link to a new community I set up over on Facebook and the group where you can interact with other listeners and guests and post questions and post the things you’re building. So I will put that link in the show notes. It’s also going to be at buildpodcast.net/facebook.

So that, I know I’m giving you a lot of stuff to do but I know you can handle it. It’s been a great great season and make sure to tune in next week because it is the season finale, and I’ll be talking to Morten Rand-Hendriksen.

So until next time. Get out there, and build something.

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