Jaclyn Schiff made her way onto the show because she’s authentic. She reached out recommending another guest, in a real way. Then, throughout the course of the conversation, we decided she’d also be a good guest for the show! She’s a master of making the most of your content. We talk all about repurposing – something I could do a little better – as well as that cold outreach she’s good at. We also talk about productizing services, which is something I’m doing at the moment. So lots of great stuff here!
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Jacci Schiff: Honestly, it’s still something I’m very much working on. It keeps changing until we find the right fit, but it’s just a much more efficient way to work. Having worked as a freelancer as well, I think you experience firsthand that it’s so helpful when you have a process that you’re able to talk a client through.
Joe Casabona: Jacci Schiff made her way onto the show because she’s authentic. She reached out, recommending another guest in a very real way. She didn’t just say, “Hi ‘Name,” I love ‘Show name.’ You should have this guest on.” We talked about the episodes that she liked and the takeaways she had from the show, which means I could tell she listened to the show, and therefore she probably did know a good guest. Throughout our conversation, we decided that she would also be a good guest, she’s a master of making the most of your content. We talk all about repurposing, something I could do a little bit better, as well as that cold outreach that she’s also really good at. We further talk about productizing services, which is something I’m doing at the moment. As much as this interview in this episode is going to be great for everybody who listens, this is an episode that I got so much out of, and I hope you do too. But before we get to that, let’s hear a word from our sponsors.
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Joe: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of How I Built It, the podcast that asks, “How did you build that?” Today my guest is Jaclyn Schiff of PodReacher. Jaclyn, how are you today?
Jacci: Hey, Joe. I’m doing well, and I’m excited to be on your show.
Joe: Awesome. I am excited to have you on the show. Jaclyn and I have been talking via e-mail for a few months, and we “Wink-wink, nudge-nudge” met at Podcast Movement because this show is coming out after Podcast Movement, even though we’re recording it before Podcast Movement. So, Jaclyn, it was very nice to meet you at Podcast Movement.
Jacci: It was great to meet you, and we had crazy, amazing times. So memorable.
Joe: Yeah, absolutely wild. We hung out with Pat Flynn and Guy Raz, and it was crazy. Cool, so thanks again so much for coming on the show today. We’re going to talk about not just you and your company that you started, but repurposing podcast interviews, which is a very interesting topic to me since I do podcast interviews. Coming up with content is– I feel like it’s such a grind some days. I’m a programmer, and I feel like I could whip up a WordPress plugin in less time than it takes for me to come up with a good content strategy. So, I’m excited to talk about that today.
Jacci: Me, too. This is exactly what I love talking about, developing content strategy based around your podcast. So many people are podcasting and having great substantive interviews. There’s so much information in there, and my passion is really helping people extract that and putting it in different forms and getting it out there. There’s so many different ways to get it out there, so I’m sure we’ll get into all of that.
Joe: Yeah, that sounds great. Before we get into that, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Jacci: Sure. As you mentioned, I’m the founder of PodReacher. I think the origin story probably best begins about two years before I started PodReacher when I was working at a magazine here in Chicago. I had a great job, but it was a very old media mentality, and for a lot of reasons, I left without having a plan in place for what was next. Very unlike me, not the things I usually do. It was, depending on how you look at it, one of the dumbest life risks I could have taken, but that’s what I did. So I left the job, and I was like, “OK. Now I have to figure stuff out.” I’d freelanced before, and I’d say if you had to put me into a box, I’m a “Content strategist.” That’s what I love doing. I love to create content and then think about “How do you use it, and how do you reach the people you’re trying to reach?” I’ve previously worked as a journalist in Washington, DC, so I have an editorial background. I’ve done also communications and marketing, so pretty well-rounded. But like I say, I’d freelanced before, and it wasn’t– I didn’t think, “OK. Now I want to start the next iteration of my freelance career,” but I got lucky and just happened to quickly find two long-term retainer clients. The whole reason I didn’t want to freelance is I didn’t want to, at that point in my life, hustle hard finding new business and all of that every month. So when this happened, I was like “Great. I’m going to do this for a little while, and these are great opportunities.” I’d also wanted to travel and do the digital nomad thing, so I got set up with the clients and then travelled for a year. I spent some time in Mexico, Guatemala, South Africa, where I’m originally from. I got some extended time with the family down there, and then when I came back to the US after all of that, I knew I wanted to start more of a business, and I knew I wanted to do something with podcasters. I love podcasts. I like to say I was a listener before people were into cereal before it was the cool thing. So I’ve always loved listening, and I’ve dabbled with creating my own, I did a little bit in work contexts before. It’s just always a medium that I’d loved. So this is now 2018 when I’m looking around at the podcast space, and obviously, it’s exploding. Everyone’s podcasting, everyone’s jumping on the bandwagon, and I’m looking at some of my favorite podcasts’ websites. I noticed that a lot of them aren’t doing a lot with the episode pages, they’re throwing up a player there, which doesn’t do much for your SEO. Maybe they’re putting a totally unedited transcript, but they’re not doing a whole lot with the content from the podcast. Going back to my background in journalism, the foundation of journalism is you interview people, and you create articles from it. It’s all about organizing and editing. So naturally, my brain went there, and I was like, “These could be great articles which would serve the purpose of marketing episode pages.” So I thought, “Let me test this out.” I reached out to 10 podcasts totally cold that I enjoyed listening to, and I was like, “Would you like some help repurposing your content, either creating a highly edited transcript or articles based on this?” Out of 10 cold outreaches, I got six really warm responses, and two ended up becoming clients. I was like, “Great. I feel like I might be onto something.” So I started working with them, and at that point, it was just me. After a couple months, I thought, “I think there’s something to this. I think a lot of people are podcasting and not thinking about the rest of their content strategy, and I’d love to form a company around that.” So then I started building up the company, and you recently had Alex McClafferty on the podcast, and Alex is awesome. I feel like I’ve learned a ton from him, and he talks a lot about “Productized services.” So that’s the basic business model of what I’ve been trying to build, and so at this point, I’m about nine months into it and really– Like, we started off with a few different offerings. But really what we do is we work with podcasters to take their podcast content and turn it into– Optimize it for text. Another way of saying that would be “Repurposing,” but I think of it as “Optimizing it for text.” Either into an article or long-form content. So that’s the gist, I guess.
Joe: So that’s interesting because first of all, you’re absolutely right. A lot of shows I listen to I’m very upset when I don’t see at least show notes as part of– When they mention something, I want to go and see– Especially ones that reference a bunch of YouTube videos, I want to go, and I want to watch those later. But even I feel like as a web developer myself, I’ve got the little blurb and I’ve got the show notes, and I’ve got the transcript, which is pretty much the conversation with maybe some “Um’s” removed. But I’m not repurposing that for articles because that can be a lot of work, which is why I’m sure people are willing to outsource that essentially to you. It sounds like your origin story is pretty well-researched, and I generally do like to ask what research you did, but did you find that other people were already in this space doing it? Or was it a pretty unique offer that you were sending out there?
Jacci: Yeah. To go back to an earlier point you made, and then I promise I’ll answer the question. There’s definitely– I like what you said, “As a listener,” so we both listen to a ton of podcasts. I like to have that transcript, or at least show notes, as a resource. I think there’s that element, and you want to have a text resource for your listener because it’s hard to go back and find the place in the audio. But then I think the distinction, and maybe this speaks to your question a little bit of what we’re offering, is we’re saying “Let’s turn those show notes into a marketing asset, where someone doesn’t necessarily have to be a listener to have the context, but they can see this either on another website or find it through a search and come to your website and see it as a standalone thing and be able to get the gist.” Then because more people are listening to podcasts, they will think, “This is interesting. I’m going to listen to the episode, or I’m going to subscribe and listen to other episodes.” I didn’t focus a ton on competitors. From listening to a lot of podcasts and just reading a lot about business through the years, I was interested in that cold outreach that I did. I knew that if I could get– Basically, my goal with reaching out to 10 people cold is I thought, “Let me see if I get one response.” When I got two people to become clients, I was like, “I’m on to something.” So I mostly focused around that, and then there’s definitely some other people that are doing this. It’s a good strategy, and they offer it as a standalone business, but I just mostly focused on “What can I and what can our team offer people?” I mentioned the productized service stuff, so that’s something I’ve also done. I find that intriguing as a business model, and that’s something I did a lot of research around when I thought about “How do I structure our workflow and structure onboarding clients?”
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Joe: First of all, before we get to the productized service. I’m saying that so I remember to bring it up. You focused on cold outreach, and you got two clients out of 10 e-emails-mails, which is by most conventions good. That’s a 20% conversion rate, and with cold outreach, you generally expect a lot less than that. What did that cold outreach look like? Was it just an e-mail introducing yourself, or did you–? And you had absolutely no connection to these people, whatsoever?
Jacci: Yeah, zero. Aside from the fact that I was a listener or came across their podcast. I think wearing another hat, I’ve also edited an e-mail newsletter called The Gmail Genius. That’s directed to how people use e-mail better, and a lot of it is geared towards people in sales and marketing. I read a lot about “Cold e-mail,” and I think the key with a good cold e-mail is to sound like you’re human, if I had to bottle it down to one thing. I think one of– In a way my weakness, almost, as a business person is I do put a lot of research and thought into every outreach that I do. As a business person, that doesn’t scale. You can’t be thoughtful about everything, but I believe in it. I know we all get cold pitch e-emails-mails, and the ones that are not relevant are painful. I just cannot and would never want to come across like that, so it was really about very briefly introducing myself because I think also when you’re reaching out to someone, it’s not really about you, it’s about them and what they need. So I said, I’d say something like, “I notice you’ve done all these great podcasts, and a lot of the content is evergreen, have you been thinking about doing more? Could we have a discussion about doing this, this, and this?” I’d lay out some of the options, but introduce the idea in the hope that they’d want to discuss it further. So, that was the general approach.
Joe: Yeah. That’s a great approach. Your first e-mail to me was a cold e-mail, but you mentioned that you have listened to the show and that you liked a recent episode when you reached out. That’s stuff that you can’t just automate unless you have a script that pulls a random name from my feed, that’s too much work. A lot of people reach out to me, and they’re like, “I think this person would be good for your show.” And then I say, “Why? What about my show, did you like?” If they can’t pass that basic litmus test, then I’m probably going to say no to them because I want– I think we talked about this in the pre-show, but I want good content. So your cold e-emails-mails are a lot more personal, and I feel like “This person cares about my content.”
Jacci: Yeah. The other person I would bring up with that who has a fascinating story is Sam Parr, the founder of The Hustle. I forget where he published this, and I can send it to you for the show notes.
Joe: Yeah, awesome.
Jacci: Again, the importance of show notes. But he wrote an extensive article about how he built up The Hustle through cold e-emails-mails. The gist of it also was personalized outreach and follow up. That’s another big part. Everyone’s so inundated, and when a stranger is e-mailing you, it’s less memorable. So, to follow up and to follow up well is also a skill in and of itself.
Joe: Yeah. Again, that’s another great point. Because the first e-mail, the first cold e-mail I see, if it sounds like it’s auto-generated or mass e-emailed-mailed to me, I’m going to ignore it. And then if somebody follows up, then I’m like “All right. Maybe there is a person behind the e-mail.” So that’s another great point.
Jacci: Yeah. We live in interesting times. We’re wary, questioning, “Is there a person behind this e-mail?” But I get it.
Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes the curtain will get pulled back, and it’s like, I got an e-mail one time that’s like “Hey, Joe. I loved your video on ‘Product.'” And then I was like, “What product?”
Jacci: Oh, my God. Exactly, it’s so embarrassing. When it’s bad, it’s just– Yeah.
Joe: The more you can sound like a human, like Jacci said, you should. You mentioned a couple of times having a “Productized service,” can you dive in a little bit more to that? Because it seems like if you’re helping people come up with content, each job is maybe a little bit different. Maybe there’s a couple of variables here, but how did you build that up?
Jacci: 100%, yes. When you’re dealing with content I think there’s a huge temptation to be highly customized, and obviously we are customized to the specific client needs, but to the extent that we’re able to each time– There’s a few ground rules and basics when you’re working with a client, and you’re taking their interview and transforming it into an article that is a readable, interesting to read piece of text on its own. There are systems to that, and even though I wouldn’t say I’m naturally a big systems person, it’s just so much more efficient when you’re able to extract some of the steps. For example, we’ll work from a transcript. We’ll have the transcript done, and we use Temi.com. I don’t know if you know them, it’s an AI transcript. I find it a really easy, good tool. So we’ll work from that and then listen to the interview, and the podcast episode that we’re working with is assigned to a writer. The writer has been trained to listen to the episode and think of the target audience. Like in your case, you’re probably talking to a lot of other founders, a lot of technical founders, WordPress developers, that kind of thing. So we think about that as we’re listening to the interview and then extract. Because the way you would write an article for that audience is different than the way you’d write it for general and someone who doesn’t even know what WordPress is. So, we pay attention to that, and then extract the specific points and organize that into an article with different subheads and takeaways, and whatever. The process is definitely productized in that sense, we have a system to it, and we also initially– The first couple months I was doing this I would offer clients, “We do custom work all the time.” It was like this person wanted a batch of 10 articles, the other person wanted to work monthly. So when I say “Productize,” it’s like we work with clients in a few different ways. We will either work on a monthly basis, we typically work either with people who are producing regular shows and sometimes we’ll create content for every show, but then we also work with guest– People that are doing just as a guest on a podcast, and maybe they don’t even have their own, but they then want to turn that into a piece of content afterwards. Because a lot of times people go on a podcast, they prepare, they say a lot of really interesting things, and we want to capture that knowledge and help them get more out of that interview. So, we have different packages based on whether you’re the podcast creator or the podcast guest. Honestly, it’s still something I’m very much working on. It keeps changing until we find the right fit, but it’s just a much more efficient way to work. Having worked as a freelancer as well, I think you experience firsthand that it’s so helpful when you have a process that you’re able to talk a client through. There’s discipline for the client, and there’s discipline for you. I think having that process is essential for getting to the best work and managing expectations along the way. But it also takes, I think, working with a few different clients to know, “What is the most effective process that will work for most people?” That’s what I’ve spent the last couple months trying to figure out.
Joe: That is just fantastic general advice for anybody working with clients or people. It’s important to have a process that you could talk a client through. I feel like I’m feeling those growing pains again. Like, I’m learning that lesson again. Because I’m pivoting from web development and freelance web development full time to doing videos for hire. The process is very different. Where with a web design client, I’m like, “I need your content, and we’re going to get the domain and the hosting and this, and here’s the whole timeline, and here’s about how long it’s going to take.” I know I can like build in a buffer because they’re not going to get me the content on time, or I’m going to spend too much time on the design. With the videos, it’s like, “What do you want your video to be about?” Like, “I don’t know.” So I need to work through that process so I can manage expectations like you said.
Jacci: Exactly. That’s the thing. I think whenever you’ve freelanced, and you’ve worked with different types of clients, and everyone does have different types of needs. I don’t want to deny that. But I think a lot of times people are just saying things differently, but they want a similar result. You can fit it into bucket A, B, or C. The reason they’re working with you is because they want your expertise. They want you to help get them from where they are to where they want to be, and so having that system is helpful. But again, it’s weird. If I would have thought about it, or if you would have asked me five years ago, “Would you be on a podcast talking about business systems?” I would have laughed in your face. But it’s just been helpful to learn a lot of this along the way, and there’s a great Facebook group. You might even find it helpful, it’s called Productized Startups. Robin– I forget his last name, but he’s the founder of ManyPixels. There’s a lot of founders in that group that talk through different pieces of this, and everything from “What technology do you use for doing this, this and this thing?” To aspects of, “How do you run the business better?”
Joe: That’s interesting. I will– I’m looking at it now, and I’m going to click “Join” and see if there’s not like a barrier. There’s a few questions, so I’ll do this later. I’ll definitely link it in the show notes, though. That sounds great. Facebook has been– It’s pivoted for me from like a place where I share pictures of my kid, which is now Instagram, to a place where I interact with people about “How do I do this?” The Podcast Movement group, for example, or the LearnDash group. Both are helpful.
Jacci: Totally. I’ve noticed this, I think I went through a period of just hating Facebook and everything they do, but I am in a lot of groups that are valuable. I still, personally, don’t like that group format. I find it hard to find older conversations and that thing, so I wish they would solve that problem. But I guess because there’s such a critical mass of people there and because people log in so often, some of these groups, whether they’re writing groups, business groups, podcast groups, are just great. So, I definitely am with you on that point.
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Joe: So, you created a productized service. Maybe now we can go to some advice for people who are looking to maybe “Repurpose” I know is the word you didn’t want to use, but repurpose their content. Whether they are a podcaster or maybe doing stuff on other people’s podcasts, or on YouTube, or whatever. Do you have some tips for that?
Jacci: Totally. Again, the other thing I guess I didn’t bring up is it’s not like I came up with this idea. There are other podcasters, and in fact, a lot of really top podcasters that are using this as a strategy. So when I was looking at this, I was curious. James Altucher, Pat Flynn, they are doing this well and consistently, and a lot of other people aren’t doing it. I think as podcasting has become more mainstream and as this more seamless interaction between smartphones and computers, and all of that. I know this has happened for me, I, for example, have read about a podcast in The New York Times, and then I’m like, “That’s interesting. I’ll check it out on my phone, and I’ll subscribe.” So I think there’s a huge benefit to being multi-channel, and people a lot of times will come to me because they want to market their podcast better. I would say, “The first thing you should do is be a guest on other people’s shows. That is definitely the best way for audiences to discover you, and that’s the first thing you should be doing.” But there’s different levels down, and I think now there’s a lot more discussion. People that are serious about their podcasting and businesses that are podcasting are realizing this isn’t– We can’t just do this in a vacuum. We’ve got to have an e-mail list, all the usual marketing stuff that you would do for something else. A podcast is no exception, the only thing I’d say with podcasting is that the growth tends to maybe be slower, but it’s a little more linear. This is just based on having conversations with lots of different podcast hosts, so I definitely think repurposing should be part of your strategy of how you’re getting yourself out there. If you’re podcasting for business or to promote yourself as a freelancer, or whatever it is, you’re trying to get a message out there. What repurposing does is it gets the message out there in another way. You have two options then, you can do it on your episode pages. So each episode page could have the podcast player, and then I think either have some really good show notes that give a very comprehensive introduction, “This is what you can expect to learn. These are key takeaways,” and then links to resources mentioned. That’s great for listeners, but if you wanted to take it one step further, this is what I see a lot of the A-list podcasters doing, have a whole article. Have something, because I think you’re not as likely to share an episode page that has an audio player on. You’re more likely to share something that has more text on it, so whether it be an edited transcript or something like that. Obviously, that’s going to– If you do that for each episode, that’s going to help your SEO for your podcast website, and you’re going to over time become more findable that way. The other approach is to use the repurposed content as guest posts. So instead of posting it on your own website, coming up with a list of, let’s say, 20 targeted websites that have overlap with your audience and placing it there. You can obviously, in your bio, mention that this is based on an episode of your podcast, so people know that and put links to other relevant episodes of your podcast within the text of the article. But if you write something really good, place it in the right place. It’s definitely over time going to help people find you, and I would point out one quick example. There was a great example on Noah Kagan’s podcast, Tyler Schulty, who has a podcast– I don’t know, I’m probably mispronouncing his name. But he talked about how he used this with the guest posting strategy. He had a column in Kiplinger, and I think a couple other places, and in five months he saw I think like– I don’t know, he went from a couple thousand to like 13,000 downloads a month. So, you can have real impact, but you’ve got to be in the right places.
Joe: Yeah, that’s such a great idea. Everything you just said there was great stuff. But the guest article from a repurposed interview is so great because some of my more popular talks there’s things I learned by asking, “How did you build that?” It’s not an article anywhere, and it’s a talk that I gave at a conference. So I’m definitely going to take some of your advice here and see how much I can grow my podcast at the end of the year.
Jacci: We’ll brainstorm it at Podcast Movement.
Joe: Sounds good. Yes, absolutely. That sounds fantastic. So as we wrap up the interview here, what are your plans for the future? Podcasting to people who have been listening to podcasts for a long time, it probably seems like podcasting is getting to its critical mass. But to a lot of people, this is just the beginning of podcast growth. So maybe you can give a prediction for the future, and then your plans for growing your business in the next couple of years.
Jacci: I see the rise of podcasting very much like blogging back in the day. It was like, “Blogging is this hot new thing. Younger people only read blogs, they don’t read news.” All these sensational discussions about it, and then businesses were jumping on board, and everyone was launching a blog. Then I think after a few years, the only people that committed to it as a strategy stuck with it. We’re doing it for the right reasons, and not just because it was just the hot new thing. I think you’ll see a lot of that with podcasts, I think it’s still going to grow, and I think a lot more people are going to jump in, but probably 2-3 years from now, it’s more of the serious folks that are going to have stuck with it. All the while, what’s great is because it’s getting so much more attention, there’s more technologies that are making it easier and more seamless. Publishing a podcast in 2010 was hard, and today it is not hard at all. So, yeah. That’s where I see it going. There was a second question in there, which I totally–
Joe: Now I will get back to that, I will get to that. But what you said reminded me of– Have you ever watched Parks and Rec?
Joe: OK. So, excellent. There is a clip of Tom Haverford, he’s Ansari’s character, listening to a podcast. Somebody asked him, and I think it was Adam Scott’s character Ben, he was like, “What do you listen to on the radio?” And he was like, “I don’t listen to the radio, I listen to podcasts. They’re totally different.”
Jacci: Exactly. That is the moment we are in, 100%. I need to look that up. I like it.
Joe: It’s so good.
Jacci: There’s got to be a GIF of that somewhere.
Joe: I will link that in the show notes, yeah. Absolutely. The second part of that question was, specifically, what are your plans for the future?
Jacci: I’m super focused on this right now. I guess in like November, we’ll be at the official one year anniversary of PodReacher, and my plans are to focus on growing that and refining those systems. I think reaching more people and just finding ways to be more helpful to podcasters. This is just something I love doing, it’s a space I love being in. I’m 100% into the podcasts and always looking for great new podcasts to listen to as well.
Joe: That’s fantastic. I need to end with my favorite question, of course, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us?
Jacci: I would say my trade secret is probably not a secret, but I don’t think enough people do it. It’s to never stop talking directly to your customers. I guess this ties in with how we started the interview, with just the humanity and that kind of thing. I also think of customers as people you sell to, but I think also people that you work with, I think of as a customer. Because people have a lot of choices, especially in the gig economy, and I think it’s really important to just always be in touch with people’s needs and be very clear on how you help in solving those needs, to always be thinking about innovating around that. I think sometimes in the early stages of a business, people will talk to customers, especially if you’re not in a freelance business, but then that drops off. That’s something I’m challenging myself to do is to keep in touch. Again, to the point of Facebook, to just be listening and know and understand what it is that people are working on and needing.
Joe: Awesome, that’s great. I love that. Especially the part about “It’s not just people you sell to, but it’s people you work with.” The woman who transcribes this show, her name is Mercedes. She e-mailed me, and she was like– It was Friday, and she’s like, “I know I’m late on this one transcript, and I know you’re probably anxious to get it out, but would it be OK if I did it tomorrow?” Meaning Saturday, “It’s my boyfriend’s birthday, and we just want to go out and celebrate.” I’m like, “Do it Monday.” I’m like, “Go out. Have fun.”
Joe: Like, it’s a little bit my fault for not getting her the finished episode before the episode went out. I’m not going to be like, “Yeah. Work on a Saturday.” So, I think that’s important. Because it forges good relationships with the people you work with and the people with whom you work for.
Jacci: Exactly. It’s like, we all– A lot of people working remotely write, you work with people that you’ve never met face to face, and I think it’s just easy for things to become transactional. You have to work hard for it not to be, and like you said, I think just taking an extra minute there to be thoughtful. I think it’s really important. So I’m with you, Joe.
Joe: Awesome. Jaclyn Schiff, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people find you?
Jacci: Thank you, Joe. This has been so great. As I’ve said, I’ve definitely listened to your podcast for a long time, so it’s an honor to be on it. PodReacher.com is probably the best place, and anyone listening is welcome to e-mail me directly with questions. I’m always up for a brainstorming session, anything like that. I can be reached at Jaclyn@PodReacher.com.
Joe: All right. I will link that and everything we talked about in the show notes. We have a rich show notes for this episode, which you can find over at HowIBuilt.it. Jaclyn, thanks so much for joining me today.
Jacci: Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it.
Joe: Thanks so much to Jacci for joining us this week. Again, I loved this interview. She talked about great content strategy, her research about cold outreach, and creating resources I think is just something fantastic that everybody can use. Then her trade secret, of course, “Never stop talking directly to your customers.” This is a lesson that we learn time and time again on this show, and it’s nice to hear it reinforced every so often. So, thanks again to Jacci for coming on the show. Thanks to our sponsors Ahoy! Pantheon and Gusto, definitely check them out as well as all of the show notes. You can find everything we talked about on today’s show over at HowIBuilt.it/145. Now, if you like this show or this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave us a rating and review over on Apple Podcasts. If you want to start a podcast of your own, Jacci and I are both big into podcasts, so I’m sure she would agree with me here. But if you want to start your own podcast, I think you should definitely check out my podcast workbook over at HowIBuilt.it/Liftoff. That will give you the checklists, and the worksheets and some templates to help you work through starting your own show. Again, that is over at HowIBuilt.it/Liftoff. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, get out there and build something.