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Brennan Dunn is a freelancer, educator, and founder of RightMessage, a personalization platform. It’s used by people like Pat Flynn to make sure their website is targeting the proper audience. We talk about how he built RightMessage and the importance of personalization and segmentation.
Intro: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Episode 113 of How I Built It. Today my guest is Brennan Dunn of RightMessage. I’m excited to talk to Brennan because he is doing a lot of cool stuff in the personalization space, and that is one of the big themes or trends of 2019 is personalization of your website and of your content and things like that. I’m excited to get Brennan’s take on it as somebody who started RightMessage, it seems, right at the right time. But he also started off freelancing with an agency he created of course and then built a product. His trajectory is very similar to a lot of people who listen to the show, and I think it’ll be very valuable because of that. I won’t say anything more, I will let you listen to what I think was just a fantastic interview, but first before we do that we need to get to a word from our sponsors.
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Joe Casabona: Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of How I Built It. The podcast that asks, “How did you build that?” Today my guest is Brennan Dunn, the co-founder of RightMessage. Brennan, how are you today?
Brennan Dunn: I’m good, Joe. How are you?
Joe: I’m doing well. Thanks so much for joining me. I’m excited to have you on the show. We met at CaboPress 2013, and I liked a lot of what you had to say. It aligns well with what I was trying to do in my business, and what I continue to try to do this year, so I’m excited to have you on the show to talk about some things like segmentation and personalization.
Brennan: Yeah, I’m happy to be here. It’s good seeing you again. I wish I was back in Mexico because now it’s freezing out and miserable, so I miss our time with cigars and daiquiris by the pool, and all that stuff.
Joe: Absolutely. We’re both on the east coast, and I’m a little bit north of you, but–
Brennan: You’re in Philly, right?
Joe: Yeah. This time of year is just rough. I like snow and cold for Christmas, and then after Christmas, I’m like–
Brennan: You want it gone.
Joe: Yeah, “Give me warm weather again.” But why don’t we start off with you telling us who you are and what you do?
Brennan: Why don’t I give a quick overview of the backstory, because a lot of what I’ll be talking about in terms of RightMessage, which is my current company, played into that. So back in 2008 I started a web agency, basically started out virtual and became brick and mortar, got to eleven employees, and we had an office in downtown Norfolk Virginia, and I got tired of client work. I had friends who were doing well in SaaS, so I decided then to start a company called Plan Scope. Or, a software product called Plan Scope. Plan Scope is and was a project management tool made for agencies and freelancers. So, I built the SaaS, and I ran head first into the issue of “How the heck do I get customers?” It was relatively easy to build but getting it to be financially viable, especially after having done consulting for so long and having made good money with that, was a challenge. One of the things I did to grow Plan Scope was I started to write a lot about freelancing. I thought, “I’ll create a blog, and I’ll write stuff about invoicing and proposals, and this and that. People will search for that, they’ll find Plan Scope, they’ll sign up, and everything will be well. The first part worked. So, this blog started growing and eventually people were asking questions that required something a little more media than a blog post. I wrote a book back in 2012, and I think it was, called Double Your Freelancing Rate. That was my first entry into the whole information product arena. From that I’ve built a lot of additional courses, online workshops, I’ve hosted four conferences, two in the US and two in Europe. That became a community now called Double Your Freelancing, and that’s– Right now that’s 50,000 people, 10,000 of which are customers. That’s where most of my income and everything else comes from. But in doing that, I started to play with website personalization. I started doing things like, “If a subscriber comes back to my blog to read the latest article that I just e-mailed them, Let’s not show a opt in widget. Let’s show a thing promoting a product they haven’t bought, or if they are a designer, maybe change parts of a sales page to speak a little more directly to them versus a developer, or a marketer.” Or something like that. I started to build the functionality on top of WordPress to handle all of that on DoubleYourFreelancing.com. That led to companies that I knew from conferences and so on to reach out to say, “Could you do the same for us?” I did a little consulting where I probably worked with, and I think it was about 10 customers over the last three years who basically wanted that, but for them. So I did that, and I ended up creating a course on automation and personalization because I couldn’t– There was a lot of people wanting this stuff, so I created a course for that. And the biggest complaint from the course was “This is great, but you’re still asking me to write a lot of code to implement this.” So that’s what led me to doing RightMessage now, where RightMessage is the culmination of a lot of consulting that started with my own stuff. So, my own itch scratched, scratching others itches through consulting, scratching a lot of itches through a course of the self-serve course that I sold at scale, and then that’s now led to RightMessage. RightMessage is now my day to day, and we have a team of six last I counted. Recent funding and we’ve been live for about a year now.
Joe: Wow. That’s a great story and progression because I think a lot of people who start off in client services tend to feel the same way. I know I did, and while I love doing the client work, I’d rather have something where I’m not trading hours for dollars. I’d rather– Especially because I have a kid now and we’re probably thinking about another one in the near future, and I want to be able to do it all. You started a blog on freelancing, you did the book and the course and then eventually did the course for personalization, before moving into a SaaS. What was the timeframe like for this? Was it six months, or six years? Or something in between?
Brennan: I made the decision to partner up with the co-founder and start RightMessage not this summer, but the previous summer. The summer of 2017. Before that, for the previous two years, I’d done a lot of consulting work by about 10 projects doing this consulting work. More on the side, more because it was fun. I didn’t need to do consulting because Double Your Freelancing was doing well, but I felt “I’m teaching people how to consult so I should have skin in the game by myself.” Then I knew that if I could go back say to Plan Scope, which was never a success for me. The mistake I made was it is so much easier to– If I could go back, I would rather coach agency owners on how to manage projects before breaking ground on software, because I would have learned so much more that way. That would have affected the product that I ended up building, and I wanted to do– I knew that before getting this offer again because I’ve done that before and I knew I wanted to try my best to validate it financially by having people pay me for the outcome. If the goal is personalized websites it’s much easier for me, and it’s much more interesting to me, for me to sell individually to some stakeholder. The outcome, that outcome that my future, my now SaaS delivers. It’s the same outcome at the end of the day, namely more sales more conversions and so on, but by doing it more on a one to one basis I was able to test out “What are the pain points that people have that are making them think, ‘Maybe I need to start personalizing my website?’ And what are the objections that they’re giving me in this dialogue format, this discussion based sales format?” By doing that a bunch, that’s namely allowed me to do that, so I did about two years of that consulting off and on, and the course was launched two winters ago. So, about six months before I decided with Shai my co-founder to start RightMessage as a company.
Joe: Gotcha. How long did it take you to build that initial audience? Because that’s something that I definitely struggle with. You said it perfectly. You’re able to sell an outcome to a single buyer, like an audience of one. I have no problem doing that. I’m very good at talking to people and understanding their problem, but then when it comes to me selling a $50 course to hundreds of people, I have a hard time doing that. I think probably RightMessage helps out a lot with that. But you built the blog, and was it basically you answered the questions people were finding? Did it take a long time to build that audience before you were like, “Do you like what I’m doing? Buy my book, buy my course.”
Brennan: Specifically, I wouldn’t say we’re still building or exploring how to build the RightMessage audience. For the Double Your Freelancing audience, which is the mature audience. The way I started out at first was I would hang out on message boards, so Reddit’s freelancing star reddit, and things like that. I’d get involved and test out blog post ideas by engaging, and a lot of the posts are questions people have. “Should I do this?” Or, “Client wants me to do X, what should I say?” So I would get involved in that and contribute to that community, and then what I would do is if I was happy with how the discussion that I contributed to was going, I would basically write a more thought out in depth guide or article based off that. Then what I would often do is, I would cycle back and say, “Great conversations here. I went and wrote this thousand word thing that I think it’s much more in-depth than I could go on in a comment here.” So I did that, and that brought people over to this new site. Eventually, Google started to kick in, which was really when things took off. But for the most part, I think I got content ideas, and I tested out writing because I still wasn’t– I didn’t consider myself to be a writer at that point. I tested out ideas and got comfortable with writing and discussing a topic, and then I took all that and made it more evergreen and more permanent on this blog of mine. So I did that for a while, and then now that’s shifted into when people join my list now, I ask them “Tell me a bit about who you are and what the number one problem you have with consulting is,” and I get a lot of replies to that. That’s padded out, and oftentimes a blog post will be something like “Joe wrote in saying blah blah blah,” and then it will be a public reply to that. A lot of the content ideas now, or started to shift from these communities to more inbound, and now I’m starting to do even more with proper keyword research to figure out “What are the gaps that I haven’t covered that there’s opportunities to bring in more search traffic from?”
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Joe: I want to get into research portion. Your journey took you seemingly naturally to build RightMessage out as a SaaS, but I suspect that you still did some research into “Does something like this already exist?” And then you’re also a developer, so maybe you looked at the best way to code this up. I’m just curious, what did your research process look like?
Brennan: I don’t put a lot of stock necessarily into what competitive products existed, because the interesting thing that I come to the conclusion of, and more so I think in selling both the course I created and consulting gigs where everyone I sold it to– Whether consulting or the course, this was new to them. They weren’t, I knew there could be some people maybe if we built this who would switch from X to us, but for the most part, we were getting people who switched from nothing. Which honestly has made it a much harder sell. It’s so much harder I think because there isn’t a ton of competition yet to make it so– Because we basically need to educate people about why they need this, and then sell them on the product. Which is much harder than just saying “We’re like– You should be emailing your customers. We’re an email marketing app for pet store owners,” or something like that.
Brennan: Yeah. Just like with ConvertKit. If you are a professional blogger you identify that way, and you want features built just for you, you don’t care about all the other stuff that MailChimp, Infusionsoft and so on have. But they need to sell people on the idea of sending email.
Joe: Right, exactly.
Brennan: It’s been interesting in that respect, but I think to go back to the original question in terms of research, I think the biggest thing is I don’t put any stock into going around asking people “Do you think this is a good idea?” Or even things like, “Would you use this if I built it?” Because what I think matters is, are people willing to pay for the problem to go away that you’re helping solve? What I liked about doing it on a consulting basis first was if you think about the spectrum of value– I don’t have a better way of putting it. Personalization on the spectrum. On the one far end of the spectrum, you have “Hire me. I know a lot about personalization. I can also implement it for you.” Consulting, straight up consulting gig. On the other end of that spectrum would be training material. A course or a book or something like that is teaching people how to get good at this stuff, but it’s up to them to implement it. I cover those two ends of that spectrum, consulting and then the training. The center would be something like software, which is a bit more turnkey, but it’s still up to the customer to do something with it. Very few software products don’t require any inputs. What was nice was because it’s that same outcome for all of those different things, whether it’s consulting, trading or software. I had validated by saying, “I will give you this benefit if you pay me X.” That happened a bunch for consulting gigs, one off consulting gigs. I learned a lot, again. Through discussions and natural sale stuff on how to best sell personalization. When I went to the course model, it was more long form sales page with buy now button, so it was different in that now it was a monologue instead of a dialogue. But I had learned a lot doing the consulting stuff to help me put together a pretty solid sales page. That drove a bunch of– We had about 400 people buy that. So that helped me tremendously because now I am now able to sell in a lower touch way that same outcome namely, personalization that leads to more sales and the benefits. By the time it got to software I was pretty comfortable with it, at that point. That’s why out of the gate our first month we launched January 23rd of last year, and out of the gate, we were like 8-9,000 in MRR. Because we knew and we built up demand, so we were building in the open and it was this natural progression that people were seeing of “If you’ve learned a lot from Brennan’s course and your mind is spinning with all of these things you want to do, but you hate being told ‘Go hire a coder.’ We’re working on a fix, a way to fix that.” I think by doing it that way it was, and if I would have jumped straight into personalization first off, I don’t think the market would’ve been as ready or at least the people I was trying to sell to would not have been as prepared. On top of that, I wouldn’t have known how to best sell it to them, because I wouldn’t have sold it actually in the past, and I think in an interesting way I made good money doing the lead up. I think it was much easier for us to get RightMessage off the ground in a way that I never had back when I was doing the project management software.
Joe: Nice. I like that a lot. You said a lot of things that I like here. Asking people if this is a good idea, I don’t like that either. Because people either say yeah, or there’s that old adage about Ford. If Ford had asked what he should build, people have said a faster horse. But he built some revolutionary thing. And I’ve heard in a few places that 2019 is going to be the year of personalization, actually I don’t know if you listen to the Landing Page School podcast, but they specifically mentioned RightMessage in their 2019 trends post.
Joe: Or, episode.
Brennan: Yeah. I don’t think I’ve listened to that yet.
Joe: It’s a good podcast, I’ll put it in the show notes here. I like it. But I think I think you’re right, and you’ve spent time talking to the audience you’ve built up. People who are probably asking for things that they want to see, that they want not to implement themselves. Then you’re learning to speak their language. That’s the whole point of RightMessage, is you want to speak the language of the person who’s visiting your site even if they come from two different backgrounds.
Joe: So maybe we can get into the title question here, which is how did you build RightMessage?
Brennan: The easy answer here is that we raised funding and hired people. My background is I’m a developer, but I don’t even have commit rights to RightMessage. That’s more intentional. Because I’m best holed up doing sales marketing at this point, whereas my co-founder Shai, he’s effectively the technical co-founder. So he’s in charge of that. We’ve got a small team of people that are helping him build that, and in terms of the stack though it is Larvel. Larvel PHP on the back end, UJS on the front end. I don’t know if that answers the technical question of what it’s built.
Joe: Nice. Then the user goes in they maybe, you can tag users. Is that the nomenclature that you use? Where I say someone’s a freelancer who also works with WordPress, and I want to show them this message.
Brennan: Let me give you a quick rundown of architecturally what it’s all about and how it’s all set up. We have at the center of RightMessage a segmentation engine, and this segmentation engine lets you do things like “I want to have a industries category, and in that, I have finance, retail, non-profit and all these different things.” Then you can, people can get assigned to one of these segments by either data that you have about them in your own backend, so let’s say we integrate with a lot of common e-mail service providers out of the gate. Let’s say we use ConvertKit. What we’ll do is we’ll make it so when a ConvertKit subscriber comes back to your website, if you’ve already tagged them as a designer or a non-profit or whatever, we’ll pull that data over in real time. So we know “This is Joe@Gmail.com checking out our site. He’s tagged customer, and he’s tagged designer, he’s tagged this, he’s tagged that.” Then we’re able to then segment that way. We can also segment based on behavior. “Did this person come from WebDesignBlog.com? If so they’re probably a web designer, so put them in there. Or did they land on this page from Google? Maybe that means they were searching for this thing, so segment them that way. We have all these different behavioral ways of segmenting. Then once we’ve segmented, then the next thing that we do is we let you do things like changing content or calls to action based on that. You could say, “This is a subscriber. Get rid of our opt in forms and put a link to our products page,” or something like that. Or to a specific product they haven’t bought. “This is a designer. Let’s make it, so all the testimonials on the sales page are from designers.” But then if you’ve benefited from the product, and then a developer shows up a split second later and they’re seeing testimonials from other developers. That’s thing where it’s basically– You’re a consultant too. So, if I get a sales lead for a consulting project, you better believe I’m taking into account “Is this a startup person or is this more of a normal, traditional business person? How technical are they?” That will affect the language I use, who referred them to me, and I’ll talk about the success they’ve had from us. We all do this, we all have a core way of selling consulting. But then we tailor that based off of “Who is this person? How savvy are they about what we do?” We all do that. It’s that ability but on websites that allow you to change core headlines, or bits of copy, or social proof, or whatever else based off data that you have about somebody.
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Joe: I can see myself using this very easily on my home page. If a developer or maybe a hopeful developer comes to my site, I show them my How to Develop Themes for WordPress course. If it’s somebody who is just totally green, it’s the How to Set Up a Blog course, or whatever.
Joe: Then I’m using prime real estate on my home page a lot more effectively. That’s super cool. The other question I would have about this is, I’m thinking a little bit about it in as far as pages in WordPress, but I was playing around with the Google a/b test optimizer tool. Where it’s a little script and then you pick what needs to change, is that how RightMessage works? Or is there a different way that it works?
Brennan: Similar interface. You point and click and change content through our editor. There’s two differences though, one of which is that’s more of an a/b testing tool, although you can use it for personalization stuff. But we integrate with your e-mail marketing app and that’s the big thing that draws people to us is, all you need to do is you type in your API key for ConvertKit and then now we’re integrated directly with your ConvertKit account. Now when ConvertKit people come to your site or opt in, we know who they are. We can pull and push data to their record. On top of that too, we are also building a lot of call to action widgets. Similar to tools like Sumo or Opt In Monster. Great tools, they’re meant to give extra pop ups or slide up things or whatever else. The problem though is that all of those tools unless you spent a lot of time doing a lot of gnarly configuration things, are pretty much going to show that same– You’ve probably been in my shoes where you get an email from a blogger, let’s say. It’s about their latest blog post, and they link you to their blog, and then you go, and now you’re getting hit with a pop up asking for your email address. You’re thinking, “You just e-mailed me a minute ago. Why are you asking for my email?” So we’re building the ability for you to have all these canned calls to action. Exit pop up, this and that. But it’s smart enough to know, “Joe’s here. He’s already a customer. We’re not going to ask for his email, and we’re not going to hit him with the next pop up. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to tell him about the coaching offering since he hasn’t bought that yet. Or we’re going to try to get him to go to our Mastermind event,” or something like that. “We also know that Joe is this and this. So maybe when he does go check out the sales pitch with the thing we’re pushing, it’s going to change a bit.” But then a random person shows up from Google, lands on a blog post, “This person is not on our list, so our goal is to get them on the list. All of these calls to action are going to be, or we already have one version which is called RightBar. It’s like HelloBar but what it will let you do is change the call to action based on where they are your sales pipeline. So, your new returning lead comes back, maybe get them to attend a webinar. If they’ve attended a webinar get them to get to the sales page. If they’ve bought that product get them to buy the premium product. So that thing and making that super easy, where you visually map out my offer funnel, and then we’ll fill in the blanks on saying “You want a sticky bar? You want a pop up? You want this?” It will always be in unison, so you’re not having your calls to action compete against each other. It works, and that’s a few weeks out, so we’re excited to get that out.
Joe: That sounds fantastic. Likely by the time this episode comes out, it’ll be out, you can head over to RightMessage.com. I’m excited to see that rollout because I just had that very issue you described and happened with the pop up modal tool I’m using. I like it, so I won’t complain about them on the podcast. But I ran into an instance where I wanted one pop up to show up on the home page, and a different one to show up on some inner pages. Both were popping up at certain points, and only the one was– I’m just like, “This is confusing and weird.” So I’m keen to see when that feature comes out. Cool. So, that’s fantastic. I think we covered a lot of ground there, Starting from the lowest level. How it’s built, up to how we can implement it. Which is cool. You touched on this a little bit with this latest feature, but what are your plans for the future of RightMessage? If 2019 is the year of personalization, what’s coming down the pike for you? Maybe, what are the trends you’re seeing that you want to jump on?
Brennan: I think the biggest thing is you’re right that everyone is talking up personalization. The biggest issue though is you cannot– Personalization, to speak developer talk for a second, is the then condition, or the then thing. You need the if, and the if is segmentation. You can’t personalize unless you segment. Most people though, and we’ve done a lot of research into serving our audience and figuring out, “How do you currently segment your list? Most people, the extent of their segmentation is “This is the form they opted into, or this is what they bought. But if you were to ask them, a question I like to ask people is “How many– You know your conversion rates from visitors to opt ins on your site, right? Break that down by industry. Break that down by job rule. Break it down by something like that.” And most can’t do that, because most don’t have proper segmentation in place. So one of the things we’re trying to do is we’re making it easy and interesting to segment people. We have a tool called RightAsk where you go to your site, and if they’re not behaviorally matched into one of your segments you could ask them, “Which are you? A developer, designer, marketer, whatever.” And what’s cool is when they answer that it’ll then go immediately up to your email marketing app. If they’re on your list, or we’ll wait until they are on your list and sync that up. What’s cool about that is, we have one of our customers Pat Flynn, and in the last, I think month and a half he’s added 50,000 segmentation points to his list just from us. He hasn’t done a lot of personalization just yet, but he’s now going to be able to because he’s getting in his ConvertKit account and [inaudible] is like, “How big is your business? Have you done e-mail marketing? Have you done podcasting?” And he’s asking these questions, so now he can start doing things like when a somebody who hasn’t podcasted but wants to comes back to his website, they’re going to see different messaging than somebody who is already actively podcasting and has a pretty successful business. They’re going to see messaging probably about expanding or growing your podcast, or something like that. I think the big thing is segmentation, so I can’t stress enough, you cannot personalize until you’ve figured out segmentation. Or at least you’ve started segmenting your audience. I think that’s going to be the big thing, like a lot of people like– Everyone wants the outcome of that personalization of Ford, but until you figure out how to segment you can’t personalize just yet.
Joe: Right. Because it’s almost like saying, “I want to bake a cake,” but then not having any of the ingredients to bake that cake.
Brennan: Everyone’s seen a cake.
Joe: Right, exactly. That’s great. It sounds like you have– I know that you have this tool, asked to help with segmentation. I’ve started to do a little bit of that with ConvertKit. Last year, about a year from October, I got ConvertKit and started pretty aggressively tagging my subscribers based on what they’ve bought, and what they’ve expressed interest in. But that can only go so far. I know what links they click on and can say, “I clicked on a podcasting link. Maybe they’re interested in podcasting. Or they purchased my course, and they’re probably interested in these things.” But I’ve been to Pat Flynn’s website, SmartPassiveIncome.com, for those who don’t know. If you go there a little box pops up, and it’s like, “Can I ask you five questions?” He learns a little bit more about you. I think that’s a good takeaway, if you want to start personalization then start with segmentation. There are some tools out there to help you do that.
Brennan: You can start doing that now. We are telling people, “Get going immediately, because people are coming to your site.” Then months later when you have, when you start seeing “50% my audience is this,” then go and start doing personalized content or highly specific targeted e-mail campaigns to them.
Joe: Absolutely. Not to jump on a soapbox or anything here, but that’s so important. Especially if you do want to get into products, or a SaaS, or selling courses. A year ago if you asked me who my audience was, I would have been like, “I don’t know. People who signed up for my mailing list.” Like 10% of those people open–” Actually, my open rate is good. But I can tell you, “It’s about 50% developers, and 25% site builders, and 25% people who are just generally interested in what I’m doing.” Thanks to segmentation, with that information I can start personalizing my website. Cool. So, I want to ask you my favorite question. Which is, do you have any trade secrets for us?
Brennan: Yes. I think the funny thing is, and I’m on the receiving end of a lot of things around “Will you promote this thing I’m doing?” Or, “I wrote this blog post, will you share it?” This and that. What’s interesting is that I’ve been doing a lot lately with doing partnerships with RightMessage, and I have to say 9 out of 10 people that I’m doing these with are people that I’ve met, like you, at a conference over drinks or something like that. I would say if you look at how there is this back channel of people who are selling products and doing well at it, and so on. We’re all talking to each other through teams and stuff, and we all know each other from these events. I think that probably the best thing that I tell people they should do, their best career move I think is to get involved by going to an actual in-person event and get to know people. I’ve been going to conferences for the last 10 years or so, and I think in terms of cheat codes for meeting people. The only reason Pat Flynn is using my product is because it’s not because we had some crazy great cut of marketing that let him in. It’s because we got to know him that way. I think that’s probably the best trade secret I have, is that there is this unique advantage that going to events and being active at these events, and not just being there for yourself but going and helping people. They help you and vice versa, and so on. That’s probably how I would answer.
Joe: That’s a fantastic answer. I was telling people very recently that I wouldn’t be where I am without my network, and I met most of my network at in-person events. So maybe that could be a 2019 goal for folks, if you haven’t been to a conference, then you should go to a conference or a networking event. A lot of people are into WordPress who listen to this show, so find your local word camp, they’re very cheap to go to. It’s a very low very barrier of entry. I love that piece of advice, Brennan Dunn, thanks so much for joining me today. Where can people find you?
Brennan: You can go to RightMessage.com to find us, or you can also go to DoubleYourFreelancing.com, that’s my main website. Or you can say hi over Twitter, and I’m @brennandunn.
Joe: I will make sure to link all of that, as well as everything we talked about, in the show notes. Which you’ll be able to find over at HowIBuilt.it. Brennan, thanks again for joining me today. I appreciate your time.
Brennan: Yeah. Thanks, Joe.
Outro: Thanks so much to Brennan for joining me today. I like a lot of the advice he gave about personalization, and some of the research he did. But the thing that resonated with me the most was to get involved by going to an in-person event. People have asked me what my trade secret is, and I believe that networking has been a vital part of my business. It seems that Brennan believes the same thing. So, thanks again for joining me today, Brennan, and for giving us some great advice. My question of the week for you is, “What are you going to do to help with your segmentation and personalization?” Let me know Joe@HowIbuilt.it, Or on Twitter @jcasabona. Thanks so much to our sponsors for this week, Plesk, Pantheon, and Hover. To get all of the show notes for this episode head over to HowIBuilt.it/113. If you liked this episode, be sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast. It helps people discover the show. Until next time, get out there and build something.