Turning the Table: How do I Find the Right Lead Magnet for my Podcast with Zach Swinehart

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Social media advice these days reminds me a bit of the parable of the Emperor with no Clothes. See, it’s easy for anyone to display how smart and successful they are. They say things like, “Here’s your content strategy for 2024: Post three times on X daily, post one thread on X daily. Create three LinkedIn posts per day and one LinkedIn carousel per week.” 

People read that and think, “That’s easy to understand,” without realizing that just posting content is not a strategy at all. 

I often think about how people perceive me and my show because I consider myself a successful podcaster. But I also feel conflicted – I don’t feel I’ve done a good job of leveraging this show to grow my audience. So, I’ve decided to have my friend, Zach Swinehart, come on to talk about how I can improve my conversions for this show.

However, it almost feels a bit like the emperor has no clothes. Am I putting myself out there? Am I letting myself be too vulnerable? I guess you’re about to find out.

Top Takeaways

  • When it comes to determining your lead magnet, you should test a few to see which resonates.
  • When you’re testing calls to action or lead magnets in a podcast, you should try a few different spots with a few different links.
  • Know who you’re talking to and try to understand your audience by looking at their pain points and objections.

Show Notes


Joe Casabona: Social media advice these days reminds me a bit of the parable of the Emperor with No Clothes. See, it’s easy for anybody to put out there how smart and successful they are. They say, here’s your content strategy for 2024: Post 3x on X daily, post one thread on X daily, create three LinkedIn posts/day, and one LinkedIn carousel per week. People read that and they go, “That’s easy to understand” without understanding in and of itself that, just posting content is not a strategy at all, and that LinkedIn is getting rid of carousels in December. So, you won’t even be able to do that part in 2024.

And so, I think about how people perceive me and my show because I do consider myself a successful podcaster. After all, this podcast accounts for about a third of my income and I help people make money with their podcast and grow their podcast, and launch their podcasts. But I feel conflicted.

When I first started this show in 2016, it wasn’t about podcasting or solopreneurship at all. It was about WordPress development. And though I changed the mission and the target audience of this show over the years, I don’t feel I’ve done a good job of leveraging this show to grow my audience. And so I’ve decided to have my friend Zach Swinehart come on to talk about how I can improve my conversions for this show. But again, it almost feels a little bit like the Emperor Has No Clothes. Not that I would ever call myself an emperor, but am I putting myself out there? Am I letting myself be too vulnerable in showing people that maybe I don’t have all the answers? Of course, I don’t think I have all the answers, and I wouldn’t want anybody to think that anyway. So, I’m excited for you to hear this episode. It’s a little bit different from others.

Zach and I talked for two hours and I try not to have two hour long episodes. So, I have taken what I thought were the best parts and stitched them together in what is hopefully a good story for you.

You should look for these Top Takeaways:

1. When it comes to figuring out your lead magnet, you should test a couple to see which resonates.

2. When you’re testing calls to action or lead magnets in a podcast, you should try a couple of different spots with a couple of different links

3. Most importantly, you should know who you’re talking to. So figure out your audience by looking at their pain points and their objections.

Zach helps me get at each of these core questions by doing something very interesting. What I thought was going to be a coaching call from him turned out to be a coaching call from both him and myself. You’ll see what I mean when you get into the intro, and then the episode.

Intro: Hey, everybody. And welcome to how I Built It, the podcast that helps busy solopreneurs and creators grow their business without spending too much time on it. I’m your host, Joe Casabona. And each week I bring you interviews and case studies on how to build a better business through smarter processes, time management, and effective content creation. It’s like getting free coaching calls from successful solopreneurs. By the end of each episode, you’ll have 1-3 takeaways you can implement today to stop spending time in your business and more time on your business. Or, with your friends, your family, reading, or however you choose to spend your free time.

Joe Casabona: One of my favorite TV shows is Scrubs. I think it’s timeless. I always learn lessons from it. And yeah, I even liked the ninth spinoff season. There are lots of memorable moments from Scrubs, but one of my favorites comes from the episode ‘My Cake’. And there are a few things going on JD is dealing with some personal problems, but Turk (played by Donald Faison), he’s not feeling too well. And Instead of going to the doctor, he just wants to muscle through it. He doesn’t, He feels like going to the doctor will make him feel weak. And so Turk’s wife (Carla – played by Judy Reyes), says at one point it’s impossible to get a doctor, to go see a doctor. And this is where Heather Graham’s character, Molly Clock, who is a psychiatrist, goes in to find Turk and ask him this question. She says, “I’m sorry to barge in on you, but I’m a little rusty on the medical side and I was wondering if you could help me. See, I have this patient, constantly tired, always peeing, losing weight.” These, by the way, are the exact symptoms that Turk has been experiencing. Turk reflexively says you should have him checked out, he might have diabetes. Molly nods, Turk realizes what just happened, and says, “Oh!”

See, she turned the tables on Turk. Instead of Turk thinking about those symptoms as his symptoms, he was thinking about those symptoms as a patient’s symptoms. And this is the first highlight I want to give you from my conversation With Zach.

Zach employs a very similar method. I’m telling him about problems with my podcast and he basically says,

Zach Swinehart: Well, what would you tell somebody if you were coaching them and they were in your situation? When you coach, I’m just curious if you can step into it. If I was like Joe, I am making 3-,50k an average revenue. I’ve done some different things. Like I don’t know what my lead magnet should be. Like, what should I do?” I would say a couple of things, right? What do you want to be known for? Who should your podcast help? What does your business do? Like all of these things that align properly for you. And then what’s the number one thing that you used to get people onto your list. Right? And so if I’m coaching me, I would say, well, you need to make How I Built It more podcast focused, or at least more focused on how solopreneurs can leverage their business with a podcast.

Joe Casabona: Now, I did start a separate show for that purpose I think with How I Built It, right? And maybe we can get into this is when I started it. I thought I would use it to support my business of selling online WordPress courses, which is why I was interviewing WordPress developers. But then like a funny thing happened on the way to the…for where people just kind of started reaching out to me and like, we’re like, Hey, we want to sponsor your podcast. And I made the decision then. Well, if I’m going to have sponsors, I’m not going to pollute my proverbial airwaves with calls to action for my sponsors, and calls to action for me. So, the thinking at the time was I didn’t want to confuse my listeners, and I want my sponsors to get the best ROI possible.

Now at this point I’ve peaked Zach’s interest because I’ve said a few things and I just want to recap them for you.

1. The show sttarted with a different audience in mind. Longtime listeners know that. And if you’ve been listening from the beginning, thank you for sticking with me for all these years. But I was very heavily focused on only WordPress developers at the time because I wanted to try to leverage my podcast to sell my online courses, which were mostly focused on people doing a lot of WordPress work.

But, and this is where I piqued Zach’s interest, I got sponsors really early. And because I wanted to keep the conversations to about 30 minutes, I didn’t feel it was right to have my own call to action along with a sponsor call to action.

And so this is something that Zach is pretty interested in and wants to dig in on.

Zach Swinehart: So let’s say I come to you and I’m like, Joe, I’ve got this lead magnet. It’s great. Whenever someone signs up for it and implements it, they get really good results. And I told my average value per subscriber is, I don’t know, let’s say three bucks within 30 days. But now I have these advertisers coming. What should I do, Joe? Because I want to keep promoting my lead magnet. I don’t want sponsors to feel like I’m stealing from them, but I also am not willing to cut off my only list building mechanism. What do you recommend that I do?

Joe Casabona: Now, this is really a question that he’s asking past Joe, right? Because if you listen recently, you’ll know that I do promote my own lead magnets and I have sponsors, and I figured out a way to differentiate them. So I do dig into that a little bit before we get into the crux of what Zach is going to help me with, which is figuring out how I should better promote my own lead magnet on this show.

So what I’ve done basically up until we started working together was have a preroll of CTA that was just mine, right? And I’ve recently decided that a pre roll CTA is not good because I also tell people like your latest episode could be someone’s first episode. And the first thing you’re asking them is “Hey, give me this thing.” It’s kind of like an over eager Salesperson watching you walk in the door and be like, “Hey, what do you want to buy?”, right? Like, just give me some space, man. Like, chill. I’ll come to you if I want something. And so I took that off and I’m trying to figure out probably the best place to put it, which I think is going to be after the intro now.

But all of that is to say that, yes, you should definitely still have your own CTA, and that’s okay to have with sponsors. The way you could do it is say, I have an ad inventory of one sponsor per 10 minutes. And so if you have a 30 minute episode, I’m going to have max three sponsors. One of those sponsor spots is reserved for my thing.

The other thing that you could do is say. Hey, the very first thing people hear very early on, I would say within the first five minutes is for my thing, I’m going to try to give them value. So for this show, I always do the cold open and then I do an intro and I tell them the top takeaways right at the beginning, like if you think you’ve got it from there, stop listening. You’ve got what you need, right? Then I think I would hit them with a, “By the way, I also help people with their podcasts, or if you like more of this, I do this thing. Here’s my lead magnet.” And so you can just say my CTA is going to be within the first five minutes. I’ll hit him with that again at the end. But the mid roll sponsor spots are just for people who have paid me to be there. And then that’s like kind of two ways that you can do it without necessarily overwhelming your audience.

Now, this gives Zach a great idea, right? I could see the brainstorm happening because we were recording video. But the fact that I mentioned, Hey, I talk about my lead magnets. I might put them in different spots. Maybe I reserve one of those spots for the mid roll that gets him thinking about how to best promote and how to best track the, let’s say, efficacy of lead magnets at different spots.

Zach Swinehart: Something I know from the website conversion standpoint that I learned ages ago with regards to like Google ads or whatever, is that on a website, the ads that perform best are the ones that don’t look like ads. And it’s why like oftentimes, text links to opt in forms within the body of a post perform much better than say the lead magnet promo at the end. But of course, this is more work. But nonetheless, it’s that level of specificity is why content upgrades do so well versus generic opt ins. And why the things that are within the text do so well, because it just, it doesn’t look like an ad. And so what I wonder is if maybe this is where I want your take, maybe part of the solution here, I’m not saying don’t do like air quotes, advertisements. But what I wonder is if maybe a good practice for podcasters is to be strategic about how you plan your episode such that there is the air quotes content upgrade within the scope of the show. So to me, from an advertising and positioning standpoint, it’s the best way to advertise because it’s not an ad. It’s just part of the content. What do you think about that? Like, strategically making sure that there’s interstitial content lead magnet advertisements within an episode.

Joe Casabona: Honestly, I think this is a great idea, right? What Zach is proposing here is… a very smart, tried and true method, and it’s something that we’ve seen effectively from other people.

Ramit Sethi does this on his podcast when he has combined coaching calls. He will coach a couple about, I don’t know, she wants to save money and pay down their credit card debt, and he wants to buy a boat for some reason. And so he’ll coach them through that situation and then promote his lead magnet about how couples can easily combine their finances or something like that, right? And so he’ll have a few of these. But the fact that he’s kind of adding it in a relevant spot is the same thing that Zach is talking about.

And the other thing I’ll say here is that I have had advertisers ask me to do this very thing where they pay me to “organically or naturally” talk about their product. Except I don’t do that for sponsors because… There’s a lot of regulations, at least here in the United States, where you need to make it clear that you got paid for a thing that you’re talking about. And so I don’t really do product placement. And I wanna make those advertisements clear. But for my own content upgrades, I really think this makes perfect sense. And so I love where Zach is going with this line of thinking.

Now, the next thing Zach mentions here I think is probably the most impactful part of our conversation because it does get into the tracking and metrics of it all. But before we get into that, I do want to give you a word from our sponsors.

Okay, we’re back. And right before the break, I teased that I think Zach got to perhaps the most impactful part of our conversation for me. And so let’s hear what he’s thinking about when it comes to checking the efficacy of our podcast or audio only calls to action.

Zach Swinehart: I’m used to my juicy website metrics. I know who saw something, I know who clicked it, and I find it so freaking difficult with podcasting to not know something I’ve been playing with though, that I’m rolling around in my mind as we’re talking about this when I shoot.

So I told you about that series that I’m working on for DYF called Six Months to Six Figures where it’s essentially coaching calls. This gets aired on both YouTube and like on the audio podcast. And I’ve been wondering how many people that come to the page come from the audio? How many people come from YouTube? The idea of having one CTA link scares me because I don’t know what is the most worth my time.

So what I’ve been doing whenever I promote the community page from those I do, two takes. So I do:

1. Take where I go to link one. And one take where I go to link two, and I mark it in Fathom. And so when my video editor edits it, she knows that when she’s producing the YouTube version to have the YouTube CTA. and when she’s producing the podcast version, have the podcast CTA. And these live in my website just with the pretty links plugin so I can see how many clicks did this one link get? How many clicks did this link get? And so I’m kind of thinking about that here. I’m thinking about how could you do an AB test in the context of a podcast because you’re talking about moving from pre roll to a bit more into the episode.

And it strikes me that there could be a really basic AB test that could be done where you could actually have like for one lead magnet, we could have one short link that you promote in a specific spot. So, say you’re doing a pre roll test and you want to say, I wonder what my opt in rate from the podcast is for a pre roll lead magnet promotion. And I wonder what my opt in rate is from a mid podcast. And you do like everything else the same. So if you’re going to do one at the very end, which it sounds like you probably should, you do that on both. So the only difference really is the pre roll. You could run this where you do like five in one place, like five different episodes in one place, five different episodes in the other. And then we could look at the amount of link clicks and then get the data on the amount of episode listens. And then probably could even segment further and get data on how many actual subscribers. But even just link, clicks, divided by episode listens, kind of gives us our click through rate.

Joe Casabona: I think aside from this being a really smart idea, Zach is actually highlighting a big problem In the podcasting space that doesn’t really exist in the web development or even YouTube space. And that’s a lack of analytics.

With your website, you basically know everything anyone does when they visit your site. If you have the right tools installed, you can get heat maps. You can do eye tracking. Now, you know when that person came, where they were coming from, how long they stayed and where they went after.

And with YouTube, you can see all of the engagement, all of the analytics, all of this stuff that’s being tracked through Google. And the best thing we have in podcasting is downloads, apps, what apps people are using, what country they’re coming from. If you dive into analytics in Apple podcasts, you can see consumption rate and the same thing with Spotify. But there’s nothing like Google analytics for podcasts, and there’s nothing like YouTube’s analytics for podcasts.

And so we have to kind of do our own thing if we want to track these numbers. And that’s really a pain point that Zach is highlighting here. I don’t think it’s something enough podcasters do. And it’s something that if I want to improve my lead magnet or improve my email signups, it’s something that I would definitely have to do, right. And if you are thinking about starting a podcast or Any content where you’re trying to attribute leads to that content, it’s something that you’ll have to do too. And I think that’s a really big and important takeaway. From here, it’s time to dive in to brass tacks, right? We’ve spent some time doing some level setting and figuring out where I think my problem lies.

Now, Zach’s actually going to give us a real strategy for something that I can do in order to hopefully increase my email signups and most importantly, give you, the listener a legitimately helpful free resource.

So let’s throw it back to Zach who’s going to walk through a potential strategy for us.

Zach Swinehart: So with all that said, I think for you, the path forward here is to make it easy. So I’m going to teach you, the listener, how I would frame a content upgrade in a podcast. So I think maybe the low hanging fruit approach here for what we should have, Joe, go out and test. This is like what I’m playing with. It’s not, I’m not officializing it as your homework yet, but it’s what I’m playing with as my loose prescription would be playing with two lead magnets that are intended to validate interest (and I’ll explain where my head’s at there in a minute) and playing with two short links for each that serve the role of essentially like validating what part of the podcast or what advertising context is most effective cause that’s essentially what I want to know is number one, I want to know what your audience is interested in learning from you. That’s like a gigantic thing. But finding out what the thing is that, that you want to coach people on. And right now you’re in this direction of automation stuff, so we’re going to probably peel back the layers there a bit.

So, I first want to find out do people actually care about automation? Cause this is the thing with like conversion wizard, for example, like it doesn’t matter how, it doesn’t matter that it’s cool that I added this extra 10, 000 leads. If someone doesn’t believe it, like you and I have been talking about this with shorts, right? The more of these conversations I have with people about video shorts, the more I’ve come to appreciate this is terrible idea for an agency offering. Because:

1. I haven’t seen results from it yet, so I can’t actually speak to results.

2. I don’t think people really see the qualitative difference between a human curating them and an AI. So it doesn’t matter if my shorts are actually better. It only matters if a person values it.

And that’s the thing that like the classic thing with any online business is that people want to know how do I get more traffic? How do I get more sales? Maybe how do I get more leads like that’s even one to validate.

And so what I think would be interesting to do here unless you’ve already done some, this is what I want to pick into with you is having one lead magnet that validates do people, do creators care about automation? And then another lead magnet that is something that’s a little bit more obvious thing and just see how they compare.

Joe Casabona: When Zach says the obvious thing here, I’m going to interpret that as either how to make money with a podcast or how to get more podcast listeners if we’re talking specifically about podcasting. But his point is true, right? You can’t know for sure without doing one of two things, explicitly asking your current audience what they care about, or even better, testing a couple of things to see which ones perform better. Because when you ask somebody, it’s all about framing the question, right? It’s, would you buy this If it was a thing? People might say yes, but have no intention of buying it. Hey, do you care about automation? People might say yes, but they might internalize the word automation differently.

And so, running these tests like Zach is recommending is something that every creator needs to do if they want to increase the efficacy (I keep saying the word of the day is efficacy) the efficacy of their lead magnets.

So let’s let Zach sum it up really quick for us:

1. Offer validation. Does someone care about this thing versus this thing? That’s like one variant.

2. Add spot positioning. Is it more effective to promote my own lead magnet in the official air quotes ad spots, or within the content?

So, this is really good, right? Because we want to offer something that our audience cares about. But how do we know where to start, right? Because yes, we are testing two different lead magnets to see which one does better, but we shouldn’t spin our wheels building a bunch of things that we know for sure no one’s going to care about. And so When it comes to this, Zach talks about the pain points and the objections. We need to figure out what our audience pain is and what their objections are, and then how we can solve for both.

Zach Swinehart: We talk about this in Double Your Freelancing all the time like people don’t care about a website. People don’t care about an app. Nobody wants a website built because they want a website built. They want a website built because what they believe, the website will do for them and their business. What I noticed, like, in Double Your Freelancing, in the blueprint, Brennan teaches this process of freelancers to start a podcast as an authority builder, as like a path to get in front of your audience. And the big objection we hear is, like, A developer is in our course saying like, I don’t want to be a podcaster. And the reason to paint this for you, the reason I’m asking is that coming back to this, I believe that the secret here is to show how podcasting helps you reach your business goals and that it doesn’t have to be so hard, expensive, scary, other synonym probably because I keep rattling off the same words. And if it’s like,, here are the outcomes that you get if you podcast for a year. You will suddenly find yourself keynoting. You will suddenly find yourself getting joint venture partnerships. You’ll get access to all these doors that are opening that never would have before. I mean, for me, I always thought of podcasting as a lead gen thing. But since being a podcaster, I’ve learned, in my opinion, the power of podcasting is as a relationship builder. So I feel like connecting those lines and conquering the objections could be a perfect lead magnet, like how to start your own podcast this afternoon without pain, pain, pain, pain, pain. So, I’m curious if you can imagine a content creator who’s like happy with, I don’t know, social media or blogging or whatever it is they do now, but they’re like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know about podcasting. Let’s hear their first person objections and reasons why they don’t want to.

Joe Casabona: So at this point, I give Zach the three most common objections I hear to people not wanting to start podcasts or objections to starting a podcast in general.

Number one is, aren’t there already too many podcasts, right? That’s the first one I hear. Well, why would I start a podcast when there’s already so many? Isn’t it saturated?

Number two. Yeah, but podcasting is a lot of work and I’m more much, much more comfortable making social posts. So that’s number two.

And number three is I’d rather put my time into YouTube because it’s easier to get discovered on YouTube which mechanically, yes, that’s true because YouTube is a discovery platform where podcasting isn’t. But it’s not really true if you don’t make standout content. So those are the three objections.

Then we get into a conversation about addressing those objections, right? And so I say right off the bat, YouTube has like 30 billion channels. And there are maybe 2 million active podcasts. But Zach shares some insight into kind of the social media/YouTuber perspective, which I thought was really interesting.

Zach Swinehart: I would think that if I were trying to sell somebody on podcasting versus say, social media that would maybe be the hard sell is like social media and I, I suck at social media. I’ve never gotten any results. So I don’t even know any of this, but I would expect that social media gives you faster results, but it’s more of a hamster wheel because you don’t have any platform ownership. And that podcasting, you at least own an audience a little bit more in that a lot of social media platforms kind of make you pay to get in front of your own audience. Whereas to my knowledge, none of the podcast platforms are like, yo, if you want your subscriber to actually see your new episode, you need to pay us to surface it. I don’t know, but what I’m getting at here is like, how do you counter these objections? So the, aren’t there too many podcasts? No one’s going to find my, like what’s behind the, aren’t there too many podcasts? Is it, I don’t have anything unique to say, is it, there’s too much competition. What feeding that?

Joe Casabona: It’s definitely that, right? It’s the, I don’t have anything unique to say, which is what people said when blogs were trying to get big too, right. Why would I start a blog about microphones when there are already blogs about microphones? Okay. But there’s not blogs about like your experience with microphones, right?

One of my easily, my best performing YouTube video is how to set up the Sony a6400. I learned how to set up the Sony a6400 watching YouTube videos that were incomplete because they had some assumed knowledge of video equipment. So I made a video. “Hey, do you not know anything about video equipment? Here’s how to set up an eight a6400 easily…” My top performing video.

So you have podcasts are not just a topic, right? You want just topic. You can talk to AI. Podcasts are topic plus perspective. If you can do that, then you have a good shot at making a good podcast.

And then the other thing I would say to people is, so going on social media is like planting seeds in someone else’s garden, right? You’re…yes, sure. You’re sowing the seeds, but then they’re going to reap all of the benefits of the crop. Whereas a podcast that’s like having your own farm and doing a farm share, you plant the seeds, you get the crop, and then you can distribute the crop however you want. You don’t just have to distribute it to your podcast feed. You can create short videos. You can create blog posts. You can turn the best quotes into social posts, right? You’re getting so many pieces of content from a 30- 60 minute interview or episode.

From here, Zach and I dive into my analytics a bit and I’ll spare you that conversation because it was a lot of back and forth and screen sharing. But we landed on a couple of key data points. One is that people In my audience are very interested in making money podcasting. And while that’s not necessarily something I prefer to teach, I always like to send people to my friend, Justin Moore on that. There’s another audience of solopreneurs and creators who are hesitant about starting a podcast, but they do want to grow their business. And so Zach then poses this question to me, a question that has plagued me, basically my entire career.

So what I’ve noticed at least in my time in business, and I think probably applies to everything is that a given audience will always have more newbies than experts just always ’cause people try podcasting. They’re like, no, not for me. And now, this is one person who was up here and isn’t down here. They have less buying power, they have less expertise, but there are more of them. Are you more inclined to help with like, “Hey, newbie. Who’s interested in podcasting that has all the objections? I’m gonna help you get a podcast started very efficiently that conquers all your objections”, that kind of thing. Or are you more inclined to be like, “Hey, super seasoned person who wants to hone and refine that one?”

My whole career is basically making the mistake of going after the newbies who have no money and can’t pay me what I need to be paid. Like I just, my audience is not big enough for me to sell the $30 product for the newbie to help them get up and running. And so like some of that stuff I make for free, but like where my real money comes in is, helping brands or companies launch a podcast as part of like their marketing efforts, and then people who have a podcast who understand, “Hey, if I want to make this a thing, then I need to invest in it a little bit.” So, I mean, they, I guess they could be newbies, but the core thing here is that they are willing to invest in their podcast.

So it sounds like the avatar would be an established business who has money and profit and perform, and channels, and they just want another one, pretty much. But, in terms of the actual stage, because like the reason that I think it could be challenging to only target season podcasting experts is that given that your audience is creators in general, if I listen to like, we did the shorts for that interview with Jordan, right? So if I listen to this interview with Jordan, I’m learning about hiring a VA, for me to be interested in that, the prerequisite is like, I am a business owner. No one would listen to that interview if they weren’t or I mean they might but like we pretty much know someone listening to that would be a business owner, but there is not at all a prerequisite that they are a seasoned podcaster, right. So, maybe ths challenge to my thinking is, is that my podcast workflows podcast is for those people. And How I Built It should be more for the solopreneur who knows that they should have a podcast, but doesn’t have one yet.

Maybe that’s the only prerequisite for a lead magnets for this show. Because my membership is also built around that like my membership now is, yes, you get ad free extended versions of this podcast, but the real value is in, I’m teaching you how to automate your processes 90% of the time with a slant towards podcasting. Like I’m going to show you how to use schedulers and like, yes,that’s more generally applicable to a bunch of things, but I’m going to show you how to use schedulers to effectively save a bunch of time booking your guests.

Zach Swinehart: I think this is interesting to think about. I think we’re on a good thread here, because I think about it as somebody who is in your target audience, but does not resonate with the positioning. So for me, when I hear about the podcast automation stuff, like I’ve listened to some of your episodes on there. But I don’t know, like I’m a developer, I’m really good at Zapier, I’m good at automation, so like I’m not for you, like what I would want to know from Joe would be like, how do I make sure I’m even doing this right way? How do I make sure I’m not spinning my wheels doing dumb stuff with my production? Like, what’s the way that I should be podcasting in the most efficient way. If your hook was, I teach people how to efficiently produce hyper profitable podcasts in the least time effort and classic, Alex Hormozi thing, right? Time, effort and sacrifice. That’s what he talks about in his value equation. So like with the least time, effort and sacrifice required, I would be like, “Oh! That’s cool.” Especially if the lead magnet was like the five ways that I wasted 100 hours for my first 20 episodes. The five biggest mistakes newbie podcasters do where they typically waste like 40 hours a month or a case study of a client for whom you optimize their processes that now they are spending like they reduce their podcast production time by 50% and save now 300 for every episode they release. I would download that.

I think at this point we have a breakthrough. We’ve been talking about the strategy and what I could do to measure the effectiveness of my lead magnets. We know who this podcast is for and who I can help. And now we have a potential way to bridge that gap.

“I think that as I’m imagining this avatar we’ve been talking about today, like the someone who knows they should be podcasting, but they’re not yet. But they’re looking for the thing to kind of push them off the edge. I think the third one would be the easiest to reposition because the other two are kind of predicated upon some existing momentum.“

As a reminder here, the third one that Zach is referencing is the third kind of example lead magnet. He said in his examples: number one was five ways I wasted hundreds of hours in my first 20 episodes. Number two was the five biggest mistakes newbie podcasters do when they start. And then number three is a case study of a client for whom I’ve optimized their process. And now they’re spending less time and money on their show. Like they wouldn’t be valuable if you don’t have a podcast yet. I would think.

So, yeah. Maybe the thing to test, the easy thing would be that third one. We could test it on the website and you could start running it on the podcast and think of ways that you can promote it both with the inside, the episode mentions like just within the context, if possible.

I really think that this is a great plan and really good homework for me. And honestly, homework I’ve already started working on as you’re hearing this episode. November is a little bit of an intense month for me, but I did want to put some time into this, especially because the case study I’m writing about Annie is one that I’ve been talking about for months to write. So this was yet another push in the right direction.

Now, I always want to give my guests on this show an opportunity to sign off and thank them. So I am going to let Zach do the sign off that he did for his podcast when we recorded this joint episode.

Hopefully, you, the listener, thinking through this whole thing has given you some insights about your business. If you’re listening on the full time creator podcast, the show notes will be at ftcreator.com/episode11. So that’s the word, episode, and then the number 11.

Zach also has this super great mini-course and templates to double your email list growth rate in 29 minutes. Really great promise, right? You can find that over at crowiz.co/go. 

Now, of course, you can find all of the show notes for this episode over at [howibuilt.it/341]. I’ll include all of the links that we mentioned here. I would also love your feedback on this episode. As you could tell, it was a little bit different. It wasn’t a straight interview. Zach and I talked for over two hours. And so I want to do distill this conversation into the best takeaways for both me and you. So let me know what you thought about this and if you want to see more content like it.

But that’s it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And until next time. Get out there, and build something.

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